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Author Topic: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!  (Read 48633 times)

JeffVolp

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2007, 09:57:43 AM »

Quote
Glad the LM465s work with your transformers. They don't always work correctly.
Wonder if anyone has tried the new Soft Start versions yet with transformers?
 
Solid State relays usually have triacs that switch on and off at the zero crossing.  These are often used with transformers and motors, and work fine as long as the full AC waveform is applied to the load.  The problem is how standard triacs respond to a load whose current and voltage are out of phase, as happens with inductive loads.  Unless special circuitry is used to guarantee switching at the zero crossing, the triac may switch at other points in the waveform.  This can cause a DC imbalance that may saturate an inductor, and cause excessive current flow.

I would not attempt to drive an inductive load with a module that doesn't just switch on/off.  It is possible that either the module or load may be damaged by excessive current flow.

Jeff
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JeffVolp

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2007, 10:06:45 AM »

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One of the other LM465's controlling the same code (07) is at a much longer distance from the circuit panel at about 250', but these two circuits that have the underground box is about 125' from the circuit panel, so I don't think it is a distance issue!

Actually, that is a pretty long run for X10.  Signals in a house can decay to marginal levels with similar total wire runs.  Most X10 problems are caused by signal issues.  It would be worth checking the signal level with something like an Elk ESM1 to verify adequate signal strength.

Jeff
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robster

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2007, 01:17:31 PM »

I'm not a trained electrical guy, but here's what I found when using X10 to control outdoor things like pumps and (especially) low-voltage transformers.  I put an X10 filter in between the X10 switch (like an AM466) and the transformer or pump.  Physically, the layout is like this: electric outlet > X10 unit (AM466) > X10 filter > transformer.  Note that if you were to put the filter in front of the X10 switch the filter will block the signal!  :P

Once I did this on all my devices, problems cleared up.  I also aggressively use the X10 filters on all TVs, computers (yes, laptops too), cable boxes and routers.  This definitely has helped with the range of getting signals to all of my X10 stuff.  Check my other posts, as I also did the range extension on my CM15A.  I buy the strongest X10 signal filters and put them in front of power strips so I can filter two or three devices with one filter.  As someone mentioned earlier, use an ESM tester to check signal strength and identify sources of "noise" or "signal sinks."

Definitely has made my system bullet-proof and elevated the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).

Good luck!    robster     ;)
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2007, 05:11:20 AM »

I'm not a trained electrical guy, but here's what I found when using X10 to control outdoor things like pumps and (especially) low-voltage transformers.  I put an X10 filter in between the X10 switch (like an AM466) and the transformer or pump.  Physically, the layout is like this: electric outlet > X10 unit (AM466) > X10 filter > transformer.  Note that if you were to put the filter in front of the X10 switch the filter will block the signal!  :P

Once I did this on all my devices, problems cleared up.  I also aggressively use the X10 filters on all TVs, computers (yes, laptops too), cable boxes and routers.  This definitely has helped with the range of getting signals to all of my X10 stuff.  Check my other posts, as I also did the range extension on my CM15A.  I buy the strongest X10 signal filters and put them in front of power strips so I can filter two or three devices with one filter.  As someone mentioned earlier, use an ESM tester to check signal strength and identify sources of "noise" or "signal sinks."

Definitely has made my system bullet-proof and elevated the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).

Good luck!    robster     ;)

Robster,

Thanks for the reply. First of all, I want to elevate the WAF all the time!

Can you help with some further clarifcation on some points:

What X10 filters do you use? Manfacturer? Model? Cost?

What ESM do you use? Manfacturer? Maodel? Cost?

Spending more $$ on those will lower the WAF!

Bruce
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Brian H

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2007, 06:56:35 AM »

ELK ESM-1 is the signal tester. I have one and it is a big help. I also have a Smarthome TesterLinc that also gives a readout of the signal quality and exact message received.

Filters depend on their current rating. X10 and X10 Pros are 5 Amps. Smarthome makes a 5 and 10 amp version and ACT makes a 15 Amp one for heaver needs.
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robster

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2007, 06:24:02 AM »

As noted above, ELK ESM1, under $100, is the signal tester.  I'll have to check for names on the filters, or you could do a site search here.  They're around $25 each if I remember correctly.  I found a guy who did a deal if I bought half a dozen.  Finally, definitely do the range extension mod as that had the biggest impact of all for me.

If you take the time to methodically eliminate X10 signal suckers/noise and get the range for signals, the X10 stuff works very well. 

Good luck!     robster
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2007, 05:23:42 PM »

As noted above, ELK ESM1, under $100, is the signal tester.  I'll have to check for names on the filters, or you could do a site search here.  They're around $25 each if I remember correctly.  I found a guy who did a deal if I bought half a dozen.  Finally, definitely do the range extension mod as that had the biggest impact of all for me.

If you take the time to methodically eliminate X10 signal suckers/noise and get the range for signals, the X10 stuff works very well. 

Good luck!     robster

Robster,

Yes, the X10 concept works very well but just some of the X10 manufactured modules breakdown too much. I have replaced WS467's with Leviton manufactured modules that just work and don't fail!

I got the impression that the suggested way to use each of these filters is one between the outlet and the X10 device/module?

This would cost a small fortune as far as I am concerned! I would need about 20 filters.

Anyway....my post this time is to ask about the CM11A's. Anyway you can boost the signal from one? Are there different brand or model CM11A' that have a stronge signal?

I going to do the under ground box this weekend and I'll post my results afterwards! Hope it is that simple!

Bruce
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JeffVolp

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2007, 07:56:14 PM »

...I got the impression that the suggested way to use each of these filters is one between the outlet and the X10 device/module?

This would cost a small fortune as far as I am concerned! I would need about 20 filters.

Anyway....my post this time is to ask about the CM11A's. Anyway you can boost the signal from one? Are there different brand or model CM11A' that have a stronger signal?

The filter is installed between an "unfriendly" device and the power source.  Here are a couple of examples:

          AC  ---->  Filter ---->  Computer or UPS

          AC  ---->  X10 module  ---->  Filter  ---->  Compact Fluorescent Lamp

The 5 amp XPPF filter is available on eBay for under $10 including shipping.

Many people are using the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability) to boost the output of their CM11A.

Jeff


[TTA Edit: Added the omitted 2nd filter; highlighted the AC and the filters for visual impact; added LINK to XTB Forum for more info; bumped font SIZE of QUOTE for "Old-Timers" readability.]
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 09:37:17 PM by TakeTheActive »
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2007, 11:36:13 AM »

Update from weekend work:

- Dug up the underground box and everything looked good, in fact better than I anticipated. All contacts for AC power outlet, X10's, and trnasformers were in very good shape.

- Changed the Home Control settings somewhat so that commands were not overlapping. Previously I had the unit code 7 & 15 going on at dusk +30 minutes and going off at 11:00 pm. Now unit code 7 going on at dusk + 30 minutes and unit code 15 going on at dusk +45 minutes. Both still going off at 11:00 pm. Unit code 14 was going on at 6:00 a.m. and going off at 6:00 p.m., no change.

Well, unfortunately, nothing got any better. All three units codes (7, 14, & 15) do not respond to "on" codes but do respond to "off" codes.   >:(

Last night I sent commands from Home Control through thre CM11a and they work just fine as do the commands from the handheld remote.

Not quite sure where to go from here, but first thing is to buy a NEW CM11A and install that, hopefully the problem is with the one I have and that will fix the problem.

Any suggeestions?

Bruce
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Boiler

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2007, 12:04:44 PM »

...Well, unfortunately, nothing got any better. All three units codes (7, 14, & 15) do not respond to "on" codes but do respond to "off" codes.
Last night I sent commands from Home Control through thre CM11a and they work just fine as do the commands from the handheld remote...

I'm assuming you send the CM11a commands at ~ the same time that your timer would have sent them.  You basically established that the CM11a can drive the "ON" commands manually.

Are you using a "Macro" to initiate the commands or a "timer" function?  If you're using a macro, try inserting delays (2 sec) between the on commands.

On your very first post you mentioned a phase coupler - could you post the model (active/passive)?

As far as suggestions are concerned: If you are dead set on replacing the CM11a, you could try purchasing at AutomatedOutlet.  This should allow you to get one of their "Loaner" ELK-ESM1 units for troubleshooting.  I don't know how their prices compare with others nor have I made use of the "loaner".  Just a thought.

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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2007, 07:33:23 AM »

...Well, unfortunately, nothing got any better. All three units codes (7, 14, & 15) do not respond to "on" codes but do respond to "off" codes.
Last night I sent commands from Home Control through thre CM11a and they work just fine as do the commands from the handheld remote...

I'm assuming you send the CM11a commands at ~ the same time that your timer would have sent them.  You basically established that the CM11a can drive the "ON" commands manually.

Are you using a "Macro" to initiate the commands or a "timer" function?  If you're using a macro, try inserting delays (2 sec) between the on commands.

On your very first post you mentioned a phase coupler - could you post the model (active/passive)?

As far as suggestions are concerned: If you are dead set on replacing the CM11a, you could try purchasing at AutomatedOutlet.  This should allow you to get one of their "Loaner" ELK-ESM1 units for troubleshooting.  I don't know how their prices compare with others nor have I made use of the "loaner".  Just a thought.



I got home from a trip late Thursday night and the new CM11A was here. Installed it yesterday, downloaded the programs to it and worked the same as the old one. No changes. All three unit codes on that particular leg of the electrical circuit do not respond to "on" commands from the CM11A but do respond to "off" commands.

Guess I'll have to get a tester!  >:(

To answer some of your questions:

- all automated commands coming from the CM11A are "timed' functions, not macros. As of last week, the timed commands are staggered slightly (by 10-15 minutes) so that they do not "collide" and possibly confuse the X10 module(s).

- not sure what the phase coupler is, passsive or active. Been a few years since I installed it so I'll have to pull the circuit panel cover off to check. Why would either active or passive have any issue with this situation?  ???

Bruce
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2007, 08:01:27 AM »

2nd thought today as I am getting my head back together after a week from "H$%LL".

Why should I get a tester when I can transmit the "on" commands to the X10 modules manually through the CM11A from Active Home and they work just fine? Does that not prove that the CM11A "on" commands can be seen just fine? What is the difference between the manually sent commands and the automated ones? Should be no difference.

I have 4 X10 modules with the same unit code, 07, placed in different locations around the house. Only one on that particular electrical circuit does not get the "on" commands. What is different about "on" commands from "off" commands since this same module receives the automated/programmed "on" command and does not respond to the "on" command? Why would the module respond to the "on" command executed from Acitve Home through the CM11A and not the progammed one?

Got me confused on this one!

Bruce
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steven r

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2007, 08:35:21 AM »

...Many people are using the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability) to boost the output of their CM11A....
I'm one of those "many people" that highly recommend it.
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JeffVolp

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2007, 10:06:38 AM »

Quote
Why would the module respond to the "on" command executed from Active Home through the CM11A and not the programmed one?

Things that do not make sense are often the result of marginal signal levels.  The devices that are ON in your house may be different when the automatic command fails.  In particular, some compact fluorescent lights are known to interfere with X10 transmission.  Other electrical devices may be noise sources or "signal suckers".

If you eliminate noise sources, and ensure adequate signal levels, X10 operation can be very reliable.  A signal meter will help you trace down the problems.  I wrote several tutorials that may help in your troubleshooting:

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

Jeff
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 12:59:49 AM by JeffVolp »
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2007, 01:14:13 PM »

...Many people are using the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability) to boost the output of their CM11A....
I'm one of those "many people" that highly recommend it.

Can you help me identify the XTB (Powerline Control Reliability)? Not sure what it is and where I can find one? Sounds like it might be what I need to fix this issue.

Bruce
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