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Author Topic: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!  (Read 48622 times)

JeffVolp

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2007, 06:11:23 PM »

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Today, I got everything together to install it. I installed it very carefully as always, understanding and following the instructions. I used a 2 foot long tail piece of #12 3 wire with ground to connect the XPCP up to two circuit breakers, using the red/black for connection to the L1/L2 poles on the XPCP to the two differing circuit breakers on each phase of the panel and the ground/white for the N's to the common in the circuit panel. Unfortunately, when I turned on the first breaker, the XPCP shorted out violently.

That wiring sounds correct, except that my unit has two black and two white wires.  Internally there is complete transformer isolation between input and output.  And both hot leads are capacitor isolated.  There is a surge protector from each hot lead to neutral, so the only path capable of carrying current is through the surge protectors.  It would be interesting to get an ohmic reading between the red and black leads, and then from red and black to both whites.  All paths should have high resistance.

I believe the Leviton 6299 is identical to the older XPCP.  One thing to remember is that the older XPCP drives the 120KHz signal to both legs out of phase.  So a 240V load in parallel will load down the coupler.  The phase can be flipped by reversing the white/black on one side.  The newer "Decora" XPCP drives the legs in phase when wired per the diagram.

Jeff
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2007, 06:29:28 PM »


That wiring sounds correct, except that my unit has two black and two white wires.  Internally there is complete transformer isolation between input and output.  And both hot leads are capacitor isolated.  There is a surge protector from each hot lead to neutral, so the only path capable of carrying current is through the surge protectors.  It would be interesting to get an ohmic reading between the red and black leads, and then from red and black to both whites.  All paths should have high resistance.

I believe the Leviton 6299 is identical to the older XPCP.  One thing to remember is that the older XPCP drives the 120KHz signal to both legs out of phase.  So a 240V load in parallel will load down the coupler.  The phase can be flipped by reversing the white/black on one side.  The newer "Decora" XPCP drives the legs in phase when wired per the diagram.

Jeff

I must have gotten one of the newer Decora style XPCP's. It does not have any wires coming out of it, 8 lugs on the back which have decal running up the side to label which lug is for what, L1,N,N,L2. Each of them having the capability of having two wires connected to each thus 8 holes.

I wired it up according to the diagam, but WHAMO! She popped real nice and scared me half out of my pants!

Bruce
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JeffVolp

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2007, 06:49:12 PM »

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I must have gotten one of the newer Decora style XPCP's. It does not have any wires coming out of it, 8 lugs on the back which have decal running up the side to label which lug is for what, L1,N,N,L2. Each of them having the capability of having two wires connected to each thus 8 holes.

I'm familiar with that unit too.  The one I tested was virtually identical to the earlier version except that the output phase is flipped.  There should be no DC continuity between any of the lugs.  It would be interesting to know where the short is.

Jeff
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2007, 06:53:07 PM »

I just ordered the Leviton 6299, so I'll wait until I get it to figure out what I need to complete the installation. When I do that I'll completely pull out the X10 XPCP and see where the cause of failure is. Right now all I did was to remove all the wiring from the circuit breaker panel.

Bruce
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Boiler

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2007, 06:35:32 AM »

Bruce,
From your previous description, I believe your LM465's are "older" units.

None the less, have a look at the following thread that deals with timers and "newer" X10 switches (there is a new version LM465):

WS465 Timed Commands: Real Head Scratcher

The thread refers to a new WS467 that will not activate with a Timed ON command. 

Active Home Pro, has an option for sending an "ON" command instead of a "Bright 100%" command.  I'm not sure if the CM11a/Active home have the same options.

Boiler
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2007, 07:31:29 AM »

Bruce,
From your previous description, I believe your LM465's are "older" units.

None the less, have a look at the following thread that deals with timers and "newer" X10 switches (there is a new version LM465):

WS465 Timed Commands: Real Head Scratcher

The thread refers to a new WS467 that will not activate with a Timed ON command. 

Active Home Pro, has an option for sending an "ON" command instead of a "Bright 100%" command.  I'm not sure if the CM11a/Active home have the same options.

Boiler

Boiler,

Thanks for that info. Makes me "scratch my head" even more!

The LM465's that are in that underground box that house the problem circuits are older units, been there for at least 5-6 years. I have quite a few (over 20) LM465's that I bought over the last year or two. My wife had me put one on the Christmas tree to control the lights for it a few years back and when she discovered how convenient that was, she started adding wreaths with lights to just about every window in the house, so around the holidays, we have over 25 LM465's receiving two different codes, 7 for the driveway lights and code 12 for the Christmas decoration lights. Since all the LM465's I have bought over the past two years should be the "newer" version, next time I have the underground box open, I swap them all out! Still one thing lingers though, all the other LM465's for the driveway lights that are on code 7 and NOT in that underground box are also "older" ones, been installed for the 5-6 years all receive the timed "ON" code just fine.

I think there is an issue with the two circuits going into that underground box affecting the timed "ON" code when there is no load on it. Why this just cropped up, not sure.

I use ActiveHome, not ActiveHome Pro. Is there any real difference for what I am doing? All timed events, not really any macros?

I also realized that this problem seemed to start just after I had a problem on my PC. Lost everything to a hard drive crash back in February of this year. Had to rebuild everything and the ActiveHome DB file was one of these things and I reloaded the CM11A about the same time this whole thing started.

When I look at the installed devices, they all look the same, and that does not answer the same question as stated above, why do all the other LM465's with code 7 on other circuits receive the timed "ON" code just fine? Back to the same issue, this problem is for LM465's on circuits that have no load on them when the command is sent out but they work fine when the timed "OFF" code is sent out. I have tried leaving a device (Pond Pump, should be enough draw to show a load?) turned on past the point when the timed "ON" code is sent, but still not recognized!

Still got me scratching my head! :-)

Bruce
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Boiler

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2007, 12:44:38 PM »

I also realized that this problem seemed to start just after I had a problem on my PC. Lost everything to a hard drive crash back in February of this year. Had to rebuild everything and the ActiveHome DB file was one of these things and I reloaded the CM11A about the same time this whole thing started.

Bruce,
From the above, it seems possible that some of the "options" changed in ActiveHome when you reloaded.  Charles Sullivan recently pointed out that ActiveHome Pro has an option that will send a ON command in place of a DIM 100% command. 

I don't know if ActiveHome/CM11a has a similar option, but this could definately produce different results.

If you would like to try "forcing" ON/OFF commands (instead of bright/dim commands) you could change your device type to an Appliance Module.  ActiveHome will only send ON/OFF commands to these modules since they do not support dimming.

If you suspect that your indoor LM465's are a newer version, I would not move this into your outdoor box.  You may create new problems.

As far as we know, the new modules began shipping this year (07Dxx date code).

Charles had a nice writeup on the new features here: New_LM465
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2007, 07:58:07 AM »

From the above, it seems possible that some of the "options" changed in ActiveHome when you reloaded.  Charles Sullivan recently pointed out that ActiveHome Pro has an option that will send a ON command in place of a DIM 100% command. 

I don't know if ActiveHome/CM11a has a similar option, but this could definately produce different results.

If you would like to try "forcing" ON/OFF commands (instead of bright/dim commands) you could change your device type to an Appliance Module.  ActiveHome will only send ON/OFF commands to these modules since they do not support dimming.

If you suspect that your indoor LM465's are a newer version, I would not move this into your outdoor box.  You may create new problems.

As far as we know, the new modules began shipping this year (07Dxx date code).

Charles had a nice writeup on the new features here: New_LM465

Boiler,

I was afraid to bring that change in my Active Home up since I feel that there is no connection and it would just point us in another direction. The reason I say that there is no connection is "why do the other 4 LM465's on the same code 7 that are not on those two circuits respond to the timed "ON" codes"? If they respond, then the command being sent out is not the problem, there is something else keeping those 3 LM465's from responding to "ON" codes"! Clarification....1 LM465 on code 7, 1 LM465 on code 15, 1 LM465 on code 14, which all three are on one leg of the wire (#12 3 wire running to the underground box) from its own circuit breaker and another non-timed LM465 code 4 on the other leg of the wire!

What I did in the absence of having any other components to work with right now was to address the issue of no load on those circuits when the timed "ON" code is sent. I took the wires in the circuit panel off of the breakers that feed them and moved them to another circuit breaker that has a load on them all the time. One circuit breaker has a good amount of electronics (DVR, Cable box, etc with probably at least a draw of 2-3 amps continously) and the other has a refrigerator on it. Now I am not sure if that will work since the wires going out to the underground box actually do not have the load on them! Probably need to have the load right there where the LM465's are? Well I did this yesterday and no change last night, the LM465's on that circuit did NOT repsond to the timed "ON" code, all others did and those LM465's did respond to the remote command.

Waiting for Jeff's Leviton 6299 to get here. Then I'll install that, dig up the underground box and put something there that will create a constant load.

Kinda getting used to the idea of a mechanical timer for those devices!

I also will try to change the devices in Active Home to Appliance Modules so to get rid of the idea that the "dimmed" command issue might be a contributing factor.

Bruce
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 08:01:57 AM by BSarte »
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2007, 07:47:54 AM »

Well, I have some interesting news to report!

Yesterday, I changed all the module types in Active Home from LM465's to AM486's by deleting all of the old ones and recreating new ones that had exactly the same information in them as the old ones (i.e. timed events that either had fixed "ON/OFF" times or followed turn on time with dusk).

Well, my wife and I went out to a car show in the late afternoon and when we got home I was pleasantly surprised to see that the trouble circuit LM465 had gone on as well as all the other's (other LM465's on other electrical circuits) for code 7, driveway night lights! The flag pole light had not gone (code 15) as programmed! The pond pump (code 14) had shut off as programmed! It was late so all I did was to turn the flag pole light on via the hand held remote and forgot about the issue.

When I got up this morning, all the lights had turned off (off time is programmed for midnight) as programmed except the flag pole light. I turned it off manually via the hand held remote. The pond pump went on as programmed (6:00 a.m.) this morning!

When I checked Active Home I found why the flag pole was not working as expected, it still had the default device code of A1 in it. I must ave missed that yesterday and expect that to work now that I put the right code in for it.

Now this whole issue seems to revolve around the problem I had earlier this year and had to rebuild/reload my Active Home DB file. I still have some things to change back and verfiy that last night and this morning were not just flukes (let's make sure that this works for a few more days before I call it a done deal!). I need to move the electrical wires feeding the underground box back to their respective circuit breakers because they are still on the shared circuits breakers where they have a load on them.

If the issue is with the ActiveHome modules (LM465's versus AM486's), then why did the other LM465's with code 7 on other electrical circuits respond to the timed "ON" code when the one(s) in the underground box circuit(s) not respond to the timed "ON" code? This is where the problem analysis took a detour and I can not figure out why! Jeff, Boiler, and some of you others have more knowledge about the X10 concept and how the commands/modules work/respond than I will ever have, so maybe you can shed some light here!

My last question is about the Leviton repeater (6201) and the coupler I am waiting for (6299). I still have the repeater (6201) installed and when I get the coupler (6299), do you suggest that I remove the repeater and simply have the coupler in place, or should I have them both working together? Do they compliment one another or hinder one anothers operation in any way?

I will report back what happens over the day or two, but I am pretty confident that this problem is on its way out!

Still scratching my head about the code 7 with multiple LM465's responding/not responding, but am waiting for some feedback! :-)

Bruce
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 07:52:29 AM by BSarte »
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JeffVolp

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2007, 09:59:17 AM »

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My last question is about the Leviton repeater (6201) and the coupler I am waiting for (6299). I still have the repeater (6201) installed and when I get the coupler (6299), do you suggest that I remove the repeater and simply have the coupler in place, or should I have them both working together? Do they compliment one another or hinder one anothers operation in any way?

Directly from the Leviton DHC Products Catalog:  "When used in the same DHC network as a 6201 System Amplifier, the 6299 Signal Bridge should NOT be in the same panel with the 6201."

While I haven't confirmed this myself, that may mean the 6201 drives both both legs "in-phase".  The 6299 I tested couples the signal "out-of-phase" when wired per the instructions.  That could cause the two units to fight one another.  There might also be some characteristic of the 6201 that causes a problem if it receives the same signal strength from both legs.

If your signals are boosted by a XTB near the distribution panel, you will get the strongest signals throughout the network by using the 6299 in place of the 6201.  It should still be possible to use both if the phase relationship is the same.  However, I recommend taking Leviton's advice and use just the 6299.

Jeff

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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2007, 10:40:12 AM »

Directly from the Leviton DHC Products Catalog:  "When used in the same DHC network as a 6201 System Amplifier, the 6299 Signal Bridge should NOT be in the same panel with the 6201."

While I haven't confirmed this myself, that may mean the 6201 drives both both legs "in-phase".  The 6299 I tested couples the signal "out-of-phase" when wired per the instructions.  That could cause the two units to fight one another.  There might also be some characteristic of the 6201 that causes a problem if it receives the same signal strength from both legs.

If your signals are boosted by a XTB near the distribution panel, you will get the strongest signals throughout the network by using the 6299 in place of the 6201.  It should still be possible to use both if the phase relationship is the same.  However, I recommend taking Leviton's advice and use just the 6299.

Jeff



Jeff,

Thanks, just waiting on delivery of the 6299! When I receive it I'll remove the 6201 and install the 6299.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that this issue is RESOLVED!  :D

Bruce
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Boiler

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2007, 06:54:42 PM »

Now this whole issue seems to revolve around the problem I had earlier this year and had to rebuild/reload my Active Home DB file. I still have some things to change back and verfiy that last night and this morning were not just flukes (let's make sure that this works for a few more days before I call it a done deal!). I need to move the electrical wires feeding the underground box back to their respective circuit breakers because they are still on the shared circuits breakers where they have a load on them.

If the issue is with the ActiveHome modules (LM465's versus AM486's), then why did the other LM465's with code 7 on other electrical circuits respond to the timed "ON" code when the one(s) in the underground box circuit(s) not respond to the timed "ON" code? This is where the problem analysis took a detour and I can not figure out why! Jeff, Boiler, and some of you others have more knowledge about the X10 concept and how the commands/modules work/respond than I will ever have, so maybe you can shed some light here!

Bruce,
What I suspect is happening is the following:
  • When you have your modules defined as "dimable lamp modules" ActiveHome is actually sending out 10 Bright commands to achieve a 100% on level.
  • The concatenated bright commands are difficult for repeaters and may be causing problems with your Leviton active signal bridge.
  • When you changed the modules from "Dimmers" to appliance modules ActiveHome began sending simple ON/Off commands.  The Leviton repeater can handle these and things started working.
  • ActiveHome Pro (CM15a) has an option under Tools/Preferences/Macros to send a ON command in place of a 100% bright command.  I'm not sure whether ActiveHome (CM11a) has the same option.  If so, this may have been reset when you reloaded your system.

Have a look at the AchiveHome thread to see what options (preferences) are available. 

Boiler
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BSarte

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2007, 08:06:35 AM »

Bruce,
What I suspect is happening is the following:
  • When you have your modules defined as "dimable lamp modules" ActiveHome is actually sending out 10 Bright commands to achieve a 100% on level.
  • The concatenated bright commands are difficult for repeaters and may be causing problems with your Leviton active signal bridge.
  • When you changed the modules from "Dimmers" to appliance modules ActiveHome began sending simple ON/Off commands.  The Leviton repeater can handle these and things started working.
  • ActiveHome Pro (CM15a) has an option under Tools/Preferences/Macros to send a ON command in place of a 100% bright command.  I'm not sure whether ActiveHome (CM11a) has the same option.  If so, this may have been reset when you reloaded your system.

Have a look at the AchiveHome thread to see what options (preferences) are available. 

Boiler

Boiler,

I checked the communications log over the last two wereks or so when I was watching the commands and strength. Active Home was set for the LM465's at 100% strength and would send out only one command for the strength (100%), not 10 commadns at 10% each (I assume that is what you were saying?).

Anyway, I am happy right now, second day in a row that everything works fine, all lights, pond pump, etc go on/off when they are supposed to!

Thanks to all for your help, suggestions, and patience! Seems like this issue is all closed out except for returning the ELK-ESM1.

Bruce

:-)
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Boiler

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2007, 01:27:05 PM »

I checked the communications log over the last two wereks or so when I was watching the commands and strength. Active Home was set for the LM465's at 100% strength and would send out only one command for the strength (100%), not 10 commadns at 10% each (I assume that is what you were saying?).

Anyway, I am happy right now, second day in a row that everything works fine, all lights, pond pump, etc go on/off when they are supposed to!

If your activity log is showing a "Bright 100%" command, the CM11a is actually sending out 10 - 10% bright commands in rapid succession.  Here's how things appear in the activity monitor for my CM15a/ActiveHome Pro:

Macro option "Issue ON in place of Bight 100%" Disabled.
C1 - (addressing unit)
C1 100% - (sends 10 Bright commands to achieve 100% on)

Macro option "Issue ON in place of Bight 100%" Enabled.
C1 - (addressing unit)
C1 ON - (simple on command)

If you have access to your Leviton repeater you can verify this visually by watching the PILOT lamp.  The Bright command will produce rapid flashing over a ~ 2 second time frame.  The simple on command should only produce 2 flashes of the pilot lamp.

I still believe your problems revolve around a setting that changed when you reloaded ActiveHome (and possibly updated to a newer version?).

All of the above only applies if you're interested in finding out what changed.

Identifying the modules as AM486's should always work since the ActiveHome will only send simple ON/OFF commands to these units.

Happy to hear things are returning to some sense of normalcy.  It's been a bit of a long and winding road (Beatles - 1970).  Kudos for having the fortitude to stick this one out.

Boiler
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HA Dave

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Re: LM465's STOP receiving ON codes!
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2007, 01:52:15 PM »

Boiler.... even though I wasn't contributing to this thread I read (almost) every post. Reading your reply resolved an issue I was having. Thank-You ... I found this timely information HELPFUL.
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