Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

The X10Hub (PiX10Hub) is here! Created by the Community, for the Community.:)% #:)

Author Topic: A real head scratcher...  (Read 16812 times)

kpautohome

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 18
A real head scratcher...
« on: August 25, 2007, 12:24:16 AM »

Here's the question why can I turn on the A1 wall units with the remote 100% of the time, but CAN NOT not turn them on 100% with an timer? Ok, so I have my out side lights all on A1, my inside Lamps on A2. I notice that if I use a timer the lamps always go on at dusk and then off at 11:00 PM, but the wall units controlling the outside lights don't go on at dusk, but interstingy enough they do turn off a dawn [I turn the on manually now that I know they aren't coming on at dusk]. Note: It ican't be an X10 signal problem with turning on the A1 lights or else I'd have the problem when using my remote. I know how to set up the time because it works fine for the A2 lights, and I have them both configured the same way [turn on at dusk]. I later find that I can't get these A1 lights to turn on with any type of timer, but I can get the A2 lights to turn on with any timer. I even tried triggering the A1 lights with the A2, since the A2 always work with the timer. Also, interestingly enough running the macro manually makes the light , but try from a timer and No dice! The macro shows its running in the AHP interface.

Logged

JeffVolp

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 107
  • Posts: 2059
    • XTB Home Page
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2007, 08:45:03 AM »

Just a few questions to get a better idea of your installation:

1)  Do you have a separate TM751 or RR501, or do you use the CM15A RF link?

2)  Are there any compact fluorescent lightbulbs anywhere in the house that might be on at dusk?

3)  Are the A1 & A2 timer commands sent close together?  If so, have you tried putting a delay between?

4)  When running the macro manually works, is that at the same time (same electrical devices on) as the timed event?

While you don't think it is a signal level issue, things that work strangely often are.  There have also been problems sending X10 commands in rapid sequence, so a delay between them might work.

If someone else doesn't help before then, I'll check back tonight.

Jeff
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 08:53:49 AM by JeffVolp »
Logged
X-10 automation since the BSR days

Boiler

  • Guest
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2007, 11:31:20 AM »

kpautohome,

In addition to the list of questions you already have -

  • From your post on a different thread, I see you are using WS467 wall switches.  Are you sending true On/Off commands or bright/dim commands?
  • Do you have a active or passive signal bridge (phase coupler) installed? Some active units have problems interpreting the bright/dim commands.
  • You are using the Dusk setting for your on event, and a fixed time for your off event.  Beware that the Dusk time will drift (move with the calender) and could interfere with other fixed time events that you have scheduled.
  • Do you have any MS13a or similar motion sensors that might be seeing your light turn on and transmitting their Dusk/Dawn output (assigned address +1).  This can result in signal collisions.

From your description, is sounds like you have a macro linked to a timer.  The macro in turn activates both your A1 and A2 switches.  Per Puck's post, Is this macro on a different house/unit code?

Per Jeff's post, make sure you have a delay inserted between the on commands -

Timer X Macro ON at dusk
Macro ON
Send A1 ON
Delay (1 sec)
Send A2 ON

If you are using bright/dim commands, try switching to straight ON/OFF commands (greatly simplifies the command sequence) and retest.

Rather than waiting for dusk to arrive,  you can add a sequence of timed ON/Off events at ~ 5 minute intervals to test your system.  You may want to create a new "home" file to prevent breaking anything in your setup. 

If your test setup works during the day and your Dusk command doesn't work at night, you may have a problem with conflicting timers or a noisemaker that isn't on during the day.

Try some things and let us know.

Boiler

Almost forgot - please give us a detailed listing of your macro and what activity monitor is displaying when your events are being activated.
Logged

kpautohome

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 18
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2007, 01:57:11 PM »

Thanks so much for the responses. I honestly didn't think I'd responses that quick, so I didn't check until now. I conducted several more tests on this matter and still have the same result. No matter what time of day it is or what other lights on in the house my remote always turns the lights on and all the timers I created for testing to turn of the wall switch fails. They still go off at dusk though. This is to the point where I'd say, if I had an RF remote that I could automatically send an A1 X10 signal to my CM15a at dusk, it would always work. Those lights just simply won't turn on with a timer, but I can turn them off with a timer. I did try the whole delay thing since there a re two dusk timers, but no dice. I even tried using on dusk time and triggering a macro to send ON and then 99% bright. Those lamp modules [ I have on A2 ] are reliable though; they always come on and always go off.

I'm a very good troubleshooter as I've been in IT for 15 years, but this one has me stumped.
Logged

kpautohome

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 18
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2007, 02:01:35 PM »

One more thing when I have the AHP interface up and the CM15a connected via USB, the A1 triggered wall switches always come on and always go off. In short, the lights are 100% reliable with the exception of using a dusk to dawn timer or any time that tries to turn them "on." The enigma deepens when you consider they turn off a dawn.
???

Also, I will give the other information you all asked for as far results and answers to specific questions.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 02:03:49 PM by kpautohome »
Logged

JeffVolp

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 107
  • Posts: 2059
    • XTB Home Page
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2007, 03:46:21 PM »

Quote
In short, the lights are 100% reliable with the exception of using a dusk to dawn timer or any time that tries to turn them "on."

This is sounding like a CM15A bug.  Have you checked the traffic monitor?  Is there a difference when the commands are sent manually versus triggered from the timer?  It shouldn't matter, but have you tried a different house/unit code?

Jeff
Logged
X-10 automation since the BSR days

kpautohome

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 18
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2007, 08:34:27 AM »

I haven't tried a different house code, but I'll give that a shot. Also, sometimes these WS467 modules turn on 100% dimmed....just found that out. I'm going to do some more research tonight, but it could be that they are getting turned on, but not getting brighten in tandem to 100%. I f these things worked as well as my lamp modules do I'd be set. I have 4 lamp modules running 2 up stairs and 2 down stairs and the little buggers are 100% reliable.

Weird related behavior. From the AHP interface I've seen the light go on, but the the brighness stay at 0%. I've also seen the light go off and stay at 100% bright. This only happens with the WS467.
Logged

Boiler

  • Guest
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 05:37:39 PM »

I haven't tried a different house code, but I'll give that a shot. Also, sometimes these WS467 modules turn on 100% dimmed....just found that out. I'm going to do some more research tonight, but it could be that they are getting turned on, but not getting brighten in tandem to 100%. I f these things worked as well as my lamp modules do I'd be set. I have 4 lamp modules running 2 up stairs and 2 down stairs and the little buggers are 100% reliable.

Weird related behavior. From the AHP interface I've seen the light go on, but the the brighness stay at 0%. I've also seen the light go off and stay at 100% bright. This only happens with the WS467.

kpautohome,
You stirred up some dormant memory cells with this post. 

X10 has been putting some "new" and "improved" units on the market without relabeling them.  The WS467 is one of these.  The unit has many new features, however AHP has not been updated to take advantage of these.  This can cause problems, especially when trying to dim the units.

Charles Sullivan has a thorough write up on the new units here: New WS476

Charles noted that these switches could not be activated using a bright command.  Furthermore they have a resume dim feature (they will remember their previous dim setting).

From your description, you may need to change the unit type that you are using in AHP.  A on/off fluorescent style switch should always work (only on/off commands allowed).  With a little playing, you may find that the Leviton switch interface works as well (these have similar features).

Boiler
Logged

Charles Sullivan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 93
  • Posts: 1565
    • HEYU - X10 Automation for Linux, Unix, and Mac OSX
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2007, 08:57:54 PM »

Charles Sullivan has a thorough write up on the new units here: New WS476

Charles noted that these switches could not be activated using a bright command.  Furthermore they have a resume dim feature (they will remember their previous dim setting).


X-10 really dropped the ball with this "new and improved  :D"  redesigned WS467.   

AHP seems to control it OK from the GUI interface, but fails when trying to control it using the same downloaded macros and timers as used for the old WS467 (or other dimming modules).  However there does seem to be a way which will work for both the old and new WS467, at least for macros:

1. Under Tools > Preferences > Macro Options, check the box which says "Use On instead of Brighten to 100%"
2. Include a step in the macro to turn the module On (100%) before the step which sets the absolute brighness level.

I haven't been able to get downloaded timers to work with AHP in a way that's compatible with the old WS467, but a timer can usually be programmed as two macros.  (Timers still attempt to turn the device On with a "brighten 100%" step, which doesn't work if the (redesigned) WS467 module is Off.)    However the redesigned WS467 supports Extended Code commands similar to the LM14A (although it remains a 1-way module and can't be polled).  So selecting a LM14A instead of the WS467 icon will work with a timer.

BTW, the redesigned WS467 modules I've evaluated all have date code sticker 07E21.  X-10 may or may not change the firmware again (and again with no notice).   However I suspect they'll probably find it less expensive to update AHP (and to heck with any third-party X10 software).

« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 09:42:45 PM by Charles Sullivan »
Logged
Yesterday it worked.
Today it doesn't work.
X10 on Windows is like that.

HEYU - X10 Automation for Linux, Unix, and Mac OS X     http://www.heyu.org

Boiler

  • Guest
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2007, 06:25:32 AM »

1. Under Tools > Preferences > Macro Options, check the box which says "Use On instead of Brighten to 100%"
2. Include a step in the macro to turn the module On (100%) before the step which sets the absolute brighness level.

Good catch Charles.  Yet another option I'd forgotten about over the years.
Logged

kpautohome

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 18
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 08:02:36 AM »

Charles, that seems to be sound explaination and I'll be trying a few things. Is it safe to leave the light ON, but 100% dimmed if that is what will make the timer turn it on, aka 100% brighten it in the case of the WS467?

BTW, I tried the LM465 icon last week and it didn't work, would the LM14a be any different?


I'll try this "Use On instead of Brighten to 100%" option as well.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 08:13:56 AM by kpautohome »
Logged

Charles Sullivan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 93
  • Posts: 1565
    • HEYU - X10 Automation for Linux, Unix, and Mac OSX
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2007, 08:29:35 AM »

Charles, that seems to be sound explaination and I'll be trying a few things. Is it safe to leave the light ON, but 100% dimmed if that is what will make the timer turn it on, aka 100% brighten it in the case of the WS467?

It'd be safe, but unsatisfactory.  The redesigned WS467 does not go to visible darkness when dimmed 100%

Quote
BTW, I tried the LM465 icon last week and it didn't work, would the LM14a be any different?

Yes.

Logged
Yesterday it worked.
Today it doesn't work.
X10 on Windows is like that.

HEYU - X10 Automation for Linux, Unix, and Mac OS X     http://www.heyu.org

kpautohome

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 18
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2007, 09:09:38 PM »

Well I tried adding LM14a in place of the actual WS467 module and got some mixed results. It was the first time I ever got the WS467 to turn on by timer though. Then I found that is some cases for whatever reaon it still turn on the light 100% dimmed. After my timer would run and nothing appear to happen, I'd hit brighten from my remote and the light would brighten. And It won't do that from the remote unless you hit on first.

I added a macro that was triggered by A1 that sent on again and 100% bright and that seemed to work consistently during limited testing. I'll see if it comes on tomorrow at dusk.
Logged

Boiler

  • Guest
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2007, 03:25:25 PM »

Well I tried adding LM14a in place of the actual WS467 module and got some mixed results. It was the first time I ever got the WS467 to turn on by timer though. Then I found that is some cases for whatever reaon it still turn on the light 100% dimmed. After my timer would run and nothing appear to happen, I'd hit brighten from my remote and the light would brighten. And It won't do that from the remote unless you hit on first.

I added a macro that was triggered by A1 that sent on again and 100% bright and that seemed to work consistently during limited testing. I'll see if it comes on tomorrow at dusk.

kpautohome,
This sounds like another "complication" from the "enhancements" in the switch.

One of the new features that Charles documented is "resume dim".  In response to and ON command, the switch will return to the last DIM level it was operating at.

From your description, the last on level your switch was operating at may have been 99% dim (or a 01 direct dim level from 0 - 63).  In response to a simple ON command the switch would return to that level, which may not be visible.  Be aware that the on level can also be set at the switch (i.e. by dimming by pressing and holding the button, you may set a on level that is not visible but still on and dissipating power - not good).

Your workaround with the "ON followed by 100%" should work.  Let us know your results.

Boiler
Logged

kpautohome

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 18
Re: A real head scratcher...
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2007, 02:35:23 PM »

Yes, that did work. All the lights work with the timer now and have been doing so for two weeks.

Thanks for all the help.
Logged
 

X10.com | About X10 | X10 Security Systems | Cameras| Package Deals
© Copyright 2014-2016 X10.com All rights reserved.