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Author Topic: 2 DS7000/PS561  (Read 47074 times)

spam4us

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2 DS7000/PS561
« on: September 19, 2007, 01:56:54 AM »

Hi all,

     I'm looking for anyone who has 2 DS7000 systems up and running.  I purchased 2 systems because I need 28 door/motion sensors.  I have one console set to house/unit code B1 (console B) and the other to F1 (console F).  All of my exterior floodlights are set to house code F1 - F6.  I want them to flash if the alarm is tripped.  I also want to arm both consoles using just one remote.  I installed the same remote into each console.  They both arm fine.  The problem I am having is with the security light and my floodlights.  I have a lamp module set to F1.  If both consoles are plugged in, the F1 lamp does not light when I arm the consoles or when I try to turn on the F1 light using the security remote security light button.  If only Console F is plugged in, the lamp lights when I arm the console and also with the security remote.  If only console B is plugged in, the security light lights and my other floodlights F2-F6 are OK.

     I also have a CM15A and a V572RF32.  On the CM15A, the transceived Housecode is set to none. The V572RF32 is set to transceive all housecodes.  The main reason I purchased the V572RF32 was to get a better range using the 4 button kefob for my floodlights (F1 - F6) and to also monitor some distant DS10A sensors.   

     Can anyone shed some light on why the security light works ok and all of my floodlights work OK when I have console one of the consoles unplugged? With only Console F plugged in, the activity monitor shows F1, F ON when I press the security light on button on the remote.  With only Console B plugged in, the activity monitor shows B1, B ON when I press the security light on button on the remote. With both consoles plugged in the activity monitor shows F1, F ON when I press the security light on button on the remote. The House Code on the security remote is set to F.

FYI....this is a new install, I didn't have any system before this other than the floodlights being controlled by an X10 mini controller.

Am I approaching this the right way. All suggestions are welcome and I thank you in advance.

Thanks
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 02:07:15 AM by spam4us »
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Brian H

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2007, 06:58:24 AM »

Are the consoles both connected to the same outlet?
It is very possible the second console is seeing the first ones signal and is not sending. I don't know off hand if the consoles are polite and will hold off if it sees another.
Another thing could be the transmitter circuits in both are loading each other down and you have a marginal signal to the lights. So if one is not on the circuit the signal is strong enough to get to the lights it normally controls.
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spam4us

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2007, 09:56:53 AM »

Brian H    each console is plugged into a different outlet and are located 2 rooms apart from one another.  I suspect that when I arm the consoles, since I am using one remote, they both arm at the same time and are both trying to blink the security light at the same time.  Even though the security consoles each have their own housecode (B & F), console B is sending out a B1 on at the same time console F is sending it's F1 and the signal somehow gets lost on the powerline.  When both consoles are plugged in, the Activity Monitor shows the F1 F ON only.  If I have only console B plugged in the Activity Monitor shows B1 B On.  If I have only console F plugged in the Activity Monitor shows the F1 F ON.
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Puck

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2007, 10:14:22 AM »

I suspect it's a case of 2 same house code transceivers messing each others signal up. Like Brian, I don't know if these are polite transceivers, but some how I doubt there was ever a need for them to be.

Having 2 set to the same house code during an actual break-in could conceivable cause no security lights nor external power horns to be activated.

This is an interesting scenario, so here are a couple thoughts that hopeful spark some more ideas from others as well:

1) Use 2 different house codes. This of course would require 2 different sets of security lights and external power horns. You could still use your remotes as common to each system, but there would still be a signal crash when you try to turn on the light(s). Also, if during a breach, a sensor from each system gets triggered, signal crashes will start again.

2) Completely isolate one system:

  • Use 2 separate house codes
  • have 1st system set up normal with the phone line, all security lights and any external power horns; as well as a spare DS10A not connected to any window or door (more on this below)
  • plug an X10 filter into the wall and plug a power bar into the filter; connect the 2nd system into the power bar as well as a Universal Module
  • set the universal modules house code to the same as the 2nd system, but make sure the unit code is different than the PS561's
  • wire that spare DS10A to the Universal Module so that when the Universal Module is addressed it will trigger the DS10A

This should isolate the 2nd system from the main house wiring and allow it to trip the 1st system if any of it's sensors get breached.

Others thoughts, ideas, corrections or flaws to these suggestions are encouraged.

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spam4us

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2007, 03:11:02 PM »

Thanks Puck for the reply.  Here are more thoughts.

In order to keep things straight lets call the normal DS7000 console N and the isolated DS7000 console I. Right now I have the consoles on 2 different house codes. I was planning on using the UM506 as a trigger but was surprised by the flood of x10 signals from both consoles going off at the same time

     I'm assuming that you have the Universal Module set for continuous contact that gets open when console I starts sending it's all on/off thereby opening the contact on the DS10A that's addressed to console N, which will then trigger the console N alarm.  How do you reset the UM506 after console I was tripped.  This would be after the alarm is tripped.  Pressing the Disarm button on the remote will not reset the UM605 to ON.  If the UM605  is not reset, then all the DS10A's on console I would not re trip the alarm leaving a possible 16 sensors that are installed in it worthless. 

     Now, let's say I'm on vacation and my neighbor has the security remote.  A DS10A on console I gets opened. Console I starts sending it's on/off sequence which in turn sends an Off to the UM506 which in turn opens the DS10A it's connected to which sends an sensor tripped signal to console N.  All is fine at this point.  The neighbor looks around and sees that my shed door was opened.  He closes the door and disarms the consoles.  He then tries to arm the consoles BUT the UM506 is in an open state.  Even if I give my neighbor a house key to access the DS7000s he has no way of turning the UM506 back on.  At this point, the slot number assigned to the DS10A/UM506 is blinking on console N and he can't Arm the consoles unless hit presses the bypass.  If he presses the bypass on console N, then all of the DS10A's that are on Console I will no longer trip console I because they have effectively been bypassed.
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Puck

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2007, 05:50:27 PM »

Some good thoughts... The UM506 does have a momentary closure mode that will immediately return to the open state. Which by the way, if you used a UM506 to trigger a DS10A, you would have to wire the DS10A to work in a N.O. mode (I have a post to show how).

Now having thought a little more about this, I don't think the UM506 will even trigger. The PS561 sends "ALL Lights ON" & "ALL Units OFF". The UM506 probably won't respond to "ALL Lights ON", so this way doesn't sound like it will work.

I will continue to think about ways they can interact as well as capable of being reset and re-armed. Using AHP would work, but having a complete PC free set up would be more reliable.
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spam4us

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2007, 10:46:35 PM »

     Well, I did some testing tonight.  Seems that the consoles do not respect each other when the alarm is tripped. I armed them both then hit the panic button so they would both go off at the same time.  The activity monitor only displayed an all light on & all units off from Console N. Neither light N nor light I flashed when the consoles were sounding their sirens.

     I think the filter in the line is what is needed to stop the signal collision and a way to trigger console N when console I gets tripped. 

     Will the XPPF or the ACT AF120 stop the x10 signal from console I (or any x10 "sender") from going onto the powerline?  Does anyone know this for sure based on actual testing?  If this can be substantiated from an actual test then it would solve the collision problem. That would leave solving the triggering on console N and also the blinking of the security light from each console when they are armed.

     If there is a way for one console to trigger the other without Active Home involved then I believe I can break the 16 module limitation on setting up a security system.  If this is possible, then in theory, you can have a 256 (not a typo...256) sensor security system using x10.  I think I'll even post this in the x10 contest & win that camera.

     In looking at the UM506, it does respond to an "All Units Off" code like you said Puck.  This would be the trigger for the DS10A.  Just wire the DS10A directly to the UM506. Have the UM506 set to "continuous contact" which will open the 1st time console I sends it all units off code (in its blinking light sequence).  Since the UM506 will not come back on again (because it won't respond to the "all lights on"), the DS10A will only be opened once (this is a good thing).  If this will work then there are only 2 problems left to solve. One is the turning on of the security light when the system is armed. The other is the resetting of the UM506 to the "On" position to close the contacts. If the UM506 is plugged into the power strip which in turn is plugged into the filter, will the filter block an incoming signal that is sent to the UM506.  In other words, does the filter block the signal both ways or just one way?

my head hurts

Thanks

« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 11:11:40 PM by spam4us »
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Puck

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2007, 12:33:23 AM »

     Well, I did some testing tonight.  Seems that the consoles do not respect each other when the alarm is tripped. I armed them both then hit the panic button so they would both go off at the same time.  The activity monitor only displayed an all light on & all units off from Console N. Neither light N nor light I flashed when the consoles were sounding their sirens.

Thanks for doing the test to confirm this. It is certain good (helpful) information to be aware of when there is more than one unit triggered.

Quote
I think the filter in the line is what is needed to stop the signal collision and a way to trigger console N when console I gets tripped. 

     Will the XPPF or the ACT AF120 stop the x10 signal from console I (or any x10 "sender") from going onto the powerline?  Does anyone know this for sure based on actual testing?  If this can be substantiated from an actual test then it would solve the collision problem. That would leave solving the triggering on console N and also the blinking of the security light from each console when they are armed.

I just did a couple tests using one of my Smarthome FilterLinc Model 1626-10 (10 Amp Filter)...

Test 1:

AC ----> Power Bar

On the power bar I plugged in a TM751 Transceiver (House Code M) and an Appliance Module (House Code M, Unit Code 3).

Watching the Activity Monitor in AHP, I pressed the M3 button on my Palm Pad Remote, and I could see AHP detected both the RF signal and the PLC signal. The RF is expected because the CM15A will pick that up. This test verified that the outlet I was connected to was seen by AHP and that both signals were detected as expected.

Test 2:

AC ----> Filter ---> Power Bar

Same set up is on the power bar.

Watching the Activity Monitor in AHP, I pressed the M3 button on my Palm Pad Remote, and I could see AHP was now only detecting the RF signal. There was no PLC signal.

For these tests, both the CM15A and the Test assembly were on the same electrical breaker and approximate 10' of house wire length between them; so there was no signal attenuation between them.
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spam4us

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2007, 01:42:10 AM »

Puck,

     A BIG THANK YOU for doing the test.  I don't have a filter to test with so I really appreciate you helping out.   Things are sounding more promising.  If you don't mind, would you do a test where you have the following.

AC---->filter --->power bar---> appliance module(set to M3)--->lamp plugged into the lamp module.  No TM751 on the power bar

Then in another part of the house, send a power line M3 On from a controller to verify that the filter doesn't block the M3 on being sent top the appliance module and the light turns on.  If this works, I can put the UM506 in place of the lamp module, I could reset it after an alarm trip back to the ON state using a mini controller set to M3 and then rearm the consoles using the security remotes.

     This would leave one more issue to solve.  That would be the lighting of the security lamp when the system is armed.  It would be nice to have a visual confirmation of both consoles being armed by being able to see both lights (console N and console I) blink when I arm the system.  I know that I could put a lamp module on the power bar for console I but that would also require the console to be near the same place that the light I want to have turn on be located.  With the main console N, I could put a lamp module anywhere in the house that it needs to be.  I'D like to have 2 small window candles blink when I arm the system.  I would be arming it from outside the house whenever I leave.  I could also give the remotes to a neighbor to re-arm the system in case of a false alarm without having entry to my house. The neighbor would see both confirmation candles blink in the window.

Thanks again.





     
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Brian H

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2007, 07:02:19 AM »

AC > Filter>PowerBar>Appliance Module will probably not work as the filter will absorber most of the X10m powere line signal. It will not get to the Appliance Module. Pucks test may confirm or disprove this.
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Puck

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2007, 09:16:29 AM »

As Brian mentioned, the filter will not allow X10 signals to pass in either direction. Looking at the schematic posted here confirms this. So anything on the power bar would be completely isolated from the rest of the house.
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spam4us

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2007, 11:41:02 AM »

Thanks to all who have responded so far. Thanks for hanging in there with this.

I'm now thinking about this combination?

ac--->Filter--->power bar--->

    on the power bar I would have UM506   DS7000  TM751 (pretty much the same as Pucks' test setup)

the UM506 would be set to the same House code as the DS7000 but not the same unit code.  The TM751 would be set to the same house code as the DS7000. 

when the alarm is tripped, the on/off cycle generated by the alarm will trigger the UM506 to Off.  When I disarm the system, I can then rearm it by first sending an RF to the TM751/RR501 which would turn the UM506 back on.  I could then rearm the DS7000 using the remote(RF) security console.

So here are my next 2 questions.  I wouldn't ask if I could find this info in the PDF manuals but the info is not in there.

Does anyone know how the TM751 and the RR501 responds to an "All Lights On/All Units Off"?
Is there an x10 module that receives a powerline signal and sends out an RF signal?

thanks
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Puck

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2007, 01:39:36 PM »

Does anyone know how the TM751 and the RR501 responds to an "All Lights On/All Units Off"?

I can't answer for the RR501, but the TM751 does not respond to PLC signals.
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Brian H

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2007, 06:56:11 PM »

As Puck indicated. The TM751 has no powerline receiver only an RF one. So it will not respond to any powerline signals.

Short test with both a TM751 and RR501. Powerline transmitter a 1132CU from Smarthome and an RF Remote X10 UR19A.
TM751 RF: All Units Off responded.
                All Lights On no response.

RR501 RF:  All Units Off responded
                All Lights On no response
PowerLine: All Units Off responded
                All Lights On no response
                All Lights Off no response
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spam4us

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Re: 2 DS7000/PS561
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2007, 07:00:08 PM »

I said...
"When I disarm the system, I can then rearm it by first sending an RF to the TM751/RR501 which would turn the UM506 back on."

Wasn't thinking straight. To reset the UM506 all I would have to do is send an ON to the Unit code that the UM506 is set to using the security remote.  Both the DS7000 & Um506 are assigned to the same house code so the tm751 isn't needed.  The DS7000 will put the RF House/unit On onto the power bar and turn the UM506 back on.

Now.......if you wanted to send an On command via Active Home to turn the isolated UM506 back on, you would need the following setup.

UM506 (B1)--->Filter--->psc24(Code I4)---> UM506(Code I4)----->ds7000 (code I2)
   |--------------------------------|

The B1 UM506 is wired to the PSC24.  It receives a B1 On which in turn closes the contact on the PSC24 which sends a powerline I4 On which turns on the UM506(I4).  

The above would let you now integrate the security system into Active Home.  Active Home could monitor just the DS10A/MS10A on the master console and in effect be overseeing up to 256 DS10A/MS10As AND be able to reset the I4 UM506 by issuing a B1 On command.

Make sense?

Thanks

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