Contact | X10.com
October 22, 2014, 04:37:14 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: The X10 Community wants to know how you use your X10 system!
Share your story in the Automated Home Showcase.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: FIRE HAZARD WARNING! LM465 Lamp Module  (Read 106726 times)
dave w
Hero Member
*****

Helpful Post Rating: 124
Posts: 5262


« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2008, 08:32:08 AM »

This wall switch has been in service w/AHP for at least 2 years w/o any problems.
But I do want to switch to CFs in many circuits, is X10 going to design a module to control the CFs?  Are there any proven work arounds for this situation?
Thanks.

A two wire wall switch such as a WS467 derives it's operational power parasitically through the load. Only incandescent bulbs allow this, CFLs do not. X10 can't change that fact. One thing you can try is to keep at least one incandescent light in the CFL circuit (multiple socket fixture?). X10 does have methods of controlling CFLs such as Socket Rockets and "non dimming" wall switches .
Logged

"This aftershave makes me look fat"
noodles168
Newbie


Helpful Post Rating: 0
Posts: 1


« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2008, 09:55:42 AM »

I have been using X10 switches and modules with  CFLs that I bought from Costco. some of which were marked as usable with dimmers. I do not dim those  but the one time I tried the bulb over heated and failed. I have multiple recessed ceiling lights that are controlled by X10 wall switch. I had to install one incandsent bulb for the CFLS to work. ditto with my two light (top and bottom) cellar stairs). I have been using the bulbs for three years and except for the above mentioned failure I have not experienced any problems.
Thanks though for the hazard warning.
Logged
4plus3vette
Jr. Member
**

Helpful Post Rating: 0
Posts: 11


« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2008, 10:32:46 AM »

I don't think I ever saw that X10 WALL switches should be used with CFL bulbs on this forum.  Maybe lamp modules and socket rockets could be used (at your own risk).  Perhaps some one could elaborate on this.  My own use is restricted to socket rockets and lamp modules, the lamp modules controlling a CFL bulb/15 Watt incandescent combination.  No dimming......

When I switched from incandescent lamps to the CFLs I was using WS467 switches.  I was very cautions about it when I first put the lights in and turned it on.  In the off position, they flickered (like OldTimer has stated with plugin style lamp modules).  So I put the incandescent bulbs back in until my XPS3 wall switch modules came in.  These work as wall switches, but handle current more like appliance modules - and they do not dim.

In conclusion, the XPS3 works well for CFL bubls. 
Logged
LittleLarry
Full Member
***

Helpful Post Rating: 0
Posts: 48


« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2008, 08:13:42 PM »

 Geez, this stuff makes me nervous as I was contemplating using the LM465 with a standard 120v halogen (one that does NOT have a built in dimmer or transformer - plugs in with regular 2 prong electrical cord) per this link:

http://www.homeautomatedliving.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-1424.html

Do you think that this would be a bad idea?

"If you're talking generic 120V Halogens, then they are simply incandescent lights and will work with any dimmer."

I definately do not want to run the risk of a fire, and just hearing about this potential risk with the cfl's makes me wonder if the more expensive Insteon's or Leviton's are worth the extra cost if they have better fire-retardant materials than these x10 modules do? Any thoughts on that?

Logged
-Bill- (of wgjohns.com)
Community Organizer
Hero Member
**

Helpful Post Rating: 81
Posts: 1424


He's just this guy. You know?


WWW
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2008, 09:16:16 PM »

Geez, this stuff makes me nervous as I was contemplating using the LM465 with a standard 120v halogen (one that does NOT have a built in dimmer or transformer - plugs in with regular 2 prong electrical cord) per this link:

http://www.homeautomatedliving.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-1424.html

Do you think that this would be a bad idea?

"If you're talking generic 120V Halogens, then they are simply incandescent lights and will work with any dimmer."

I definately do not want to run the risk of a fire, and just hearing about this potential risk with the cfl's makes me wonder if the more expensive Insteon's or Leviton's are worth the extra cost if they have better fire-retardant materials than these x10 modules do? Any thoughts on that?



The issue here is not specific to using CFL's or other bulbs with X10.  The issue is that CFL's by nature can have internal short-circuit problems in the electronics that produce the high voltage that makes them light.  I have had a couple CFL bulbs fail in "normal use" and fortunately just let out a bad "burnt electronics" stink.  Depending on how they fail and how they are constructed, the possibility of catching fire is there, just hopefully not common.   whistle

Halogens ARE NOT normal incandescent lights!  Most halogen lights that I am familiar with work similarly to CFL's in that they have an electronics board that steps up the normal wall outlet voltage to a high voltage to ionize the gas inside.

The circuitry that steps up the voltage will in most cases not like being dimmed in the way that X10 (and most other) dimming lamp modules accomplish dimming.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 03:17:14 PM by -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) » Logged

-Bill- (of wgjohns.com)
bill@wgjohns.com

In the real world, the only constant is change.

When I'm online you can find me in the Home Automation Chat Room!
JeffVolp
Expert Advisor
Hero Member
*

Helpful Post Rating: 93
Posts: 1569



WWW
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2008, 06:04:27 AM »

Halogens ARE NOT normal incandescent lights!  Most halogen lights that I am familiar with work similarly to CFL's in that they have an electronics board that steps up the normal wall outlet voltage to a high voltage to ionize the gas inside.

We use a bunch of halogens here - 12V versions in the landscape lights, and 120V Sylvania "HaloFloods" for the dimmable ceiling lights.  All our halogens are just like incandescents, but produce a brighter "whiter" light.  The filament runs at higher temperature, causing the tungsten to evaporate faster.  The halogen atmosphere is supposed to cause that to re-deposit on the filament so it doesn't quickly burn out.  I understand the re-deposition doesn't work very well (or at all) when the lamp is dimmed.  However, the tungsten evaporation should also be slower with the filament running cooler when dimmed.  The 120V Sylvania HaloFloods work perfectly on dimmers, and we have yet had one burn out after several years.  I am not aware of any halogens that need the gas inside to be ionized.  Are they more efficient?  I would be interested in reading about that technology.

Jeff
Logged

X-10 automation since the BSR days
-Bill- (of wgjohns.com)
Community Organizer
Hero Member
**

Helpful Post Rating: 81
Posts: 1424


He's just this guy. You know?


WWW
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2008, 03:23:38 PM »

Halogens ARE NOT normal incandescent lights!  Most halogen lights that I am familiar with work similarly to CFL's in that they have an electronics board that steps up the normal wall outlet voltage to a high voltage to ionize the gas inside.

We use a bunch of halogens here - 12V versions in the landscape lights, and 120V Sylvania "HaloFloods" for the dimmable ceiling lights.  All our halogens are just like incandescents, but produce a brighter "whiter" light.  The filament runs at higher temperature, causing the tungsten to evaporate faster.  The halogen atmosphere is supposed to cause that to re-deposit on the filament so it doesn't quickly burn out.  I understand the re-deposition doesn't work very well (or at all) when the lamp is dimmed.  However, the tungsten evaporation should also be slower with the filament running cooler when dimmed.  The 120V Sylvania HaloFloods work perfectly on dimmers, and we have yet had one burn out after several years.  I am not aware of any halogens that need the gas inside to be ionized.  Are they more efficient?  I would be interested in reading about that technology.

Jeff

You know Jeff, I must admit, even I don't know what I was thinking of when I posted that!   Huh

Best I can figure is I still had CFL's on the brain.   laugh

Thanks for pointing that out.  We have plenty of misinformation around here without me unintentionally contributing to it!

 GoodJob    Cheers
Logged

-Bill- (of wgjohns.com)
bill@wgjohns.com

In the real world, the only constant is change.

When I'm online you can find me in the Home Automation Chat Room!
evadorev
Sr. Member
****

Helpful Post Rating: 4
Posts: 79


« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2009, 09:56:02 AM »

i think i have some answers to your posts:

1- module burn down and module hum: when you use triacs at the undercurrent state with a magnetic load like the ballasts of CFL or HMI, the triac generates a lot of heat due to the incapacity of the triac to work on this state. that can cause the burn down of the module, the flickering light and the hum of the module. I saw this problem on professionnal stage lighting equipment i designed.

2- the spot on the exterior of the second module maybe caused by an arc generated by a loose connection on the power strip you tell us the module is plugged.

The difference between the dimmable CFL vs the non dimmable is on the dimmable, the circuit is electronics not magnetic ballasts, so if it tells to use incandescent only, use it. it will cost you a bit more but You can keep your house up this way !!!!!

Hope it helps !!!
Logged

Mary had a little lamp, little lamp, controlled by X10 !!!! (kid song!!)
Walt2
Advanced Member
Hero Member
******

Helpful Post Rating: 28
Posts: 889


« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 04:25:06 PM »

I have been using X10 switches and modules with  CFLs that I bought from Costco. some of which were marked as usable with dimmers.

IMHO, that is the real key here.   Idea

 
Shouting in large red type, doesn't change it.

All the CFL I have seen, are pretty clearly labeled as to if they are compatible with a dimmer, or not.   If one chooses to ignore such warnings, and use a non-dimmable CFL with a dimmer like a lamp module, have no one to blame, but themselves.  It certainly is not X10's fault.

Personally, I use dimmable CFL with my new style lamp modules, and have no problems with them ramping up at power-on, ramping down at power-off, and dimming as I whim.   
Logged

* Sears Home Control System, Radio Shack Plug 'n Power, NuTone, Stanley LightMaker, BSR, HomeLink.
* Tecmar Device Master, CP290 (LightHouse), CM11A (AH), CM14A (AH2), CM15A (AHPro).
Brian H
Community Organizer
Hero Member
**

Helpful Post Rating: 258
Posts: 11170


« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2010, 03:06:48 AM »

walt2;
Just curious.  Are your new lamp modules the latest? My one year old and last weeks soft starts act differently from each other. The latest must have been changed for the security console not flashing them correctly. My latest ones go on and off instantly with a All Lights On all Units Off command and don't ramp. They also go on and off instantly with a standard on and off if in a one second cycle.

I have done some tests and you are correct. Even at 100% the CFLs act differently on a Lamp Module. I use appliance types myself but don't use dimmable ones. I do have some CCFLs that can be dimmed.
Logged
Twayne
Newbie


Helpful Post Rating: 0
Posts: 1


« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2010, 05:50:51 AM »

 I know this is an OLD post, but since I don't see a good response in total, I'd like to leave a little infor about it.
   The Manual AND X10 say NOT to use these with Flourescents, which includes CFLs, and that the load on them IIRC needs to be 40watts or greater. I even recall a statement somewhere that damage to the unit could occur if those were violated. There are specific units that WILL control flourescents though I never looked up the required miin load on them. Any product that can emit a flame or dangerous temperature is totally unacceptable and indicative of very poor design.
   So it boils down to READ THE available DATA before you install anything! I don't see any Saftey Markings (UL, CSA, EC, etc) on many of the X10 products, so it becomes very, very important to follow the instructions for installation and use of these items. UL would not have allowed their mark to be used on a part that could become excessively hot and had the likelihood of catching fire that went external to the box.  In the worst case, one of these things burninig down your home could concievably negate one's fire insurance were it noticed. UL requirements can be found on the UL site but must be read in their entirety to fully understand them. This point was a big disappointment to me and is probably going to cause me to uninstall anything without proper markings.
   UL et al is "voluntary" but ... you cannot legally sell product in N.A. without a relevant safety marking.


Please read this entire post.

I have purchased many X10 products over the past several years and have enjoyed the ease of installation and use.  However, I now feel compelled to bring your attention to a very serious matter.

As you may know, people are switching to the CFL (Compact Florescent Lamp) bulbs.  In fact, the government has mandated that incandescent bulbs not be sold after 2012.  These CFL bulbs screw into ordinary table lamps and ceiling fixtures, so you may not be aware of the FIRE HAZARD that exists when mixing a CFL bulb with the LM465 Lamp Module.

A few months ago, I came home to discover that one of my LM465 modules had burst into flames without warning and scorched the solid wood pine tongue and groove paneling wall that bore the outlet powering a table lamp.  I reasoned that the X10 unit was "old" and this was probably the cause.  Fortunately, the fire only melted the module and scorched the wood, but missed the upholstered chair that was only a foot away from the unit.  The molten plastic dripped down to the baseboard and scorched the carpet, but happily, the carpet did not catch fire. Had the flames found the back of this chair or ignited the carpet, I am certain my home would have burned to the ground.  I replaced the module with a NEW LM465 purchased from Fry's. 

Today, Feb. 5, 2008, I came home to discover that ANOTHER LM465 lamp module (not the replaced unit) had burst into flames.  Again, luckily, the fire damage was minimal and the flames missed the wooden end table that was just above the unit.  I immediately pulled ALL of my LM465 lamp modules.  It was then that I noticed the small tag on the back of the unit which reads "For indoor INCANDESCENT lamp use only.  Both of the lamps associated with the fires had the 13 WATT CFL bulbs in the sockets!  Another module in another room showed signs of melting as well, with the metal melting through the back of the unit near the power tabs and a black burnt carbon spot on the top rear left corner surface.  This lamp ALSO had a 13 watt CFL bulb in it.

This is important, as the CFL bulbs we are now using to replace the old standard incandescent bulbs are still FLORESCENT bulbs, and the LM465 units HEAT UP while powering these bulbs for any length of time, and can burst into flames WITHOUT WARNING.

I want to stress that the X10 LM465 units are NOT defective, but it is imperative that you understand that when you plug a lamp or fixture into these modules when a florescent bulb is providing the light, you run the risk of the LM465 unit overheating and causing a spontaneous fire in your home or business.  You MUST use an incandescent bulb in lamps that are plugged into the LM465 module, as the attached warning label states!

I hope that the fine folks at X-10 look into this incompatibility issue and begin to manufacture lamp modules that can handle the new, soon-to-be federally REQUIRED CFL bulb's power requirements.  Since my entire home is now converted to cFL bulbs, I will not be using my old X10 lamp modules until a safe solution is found.


.
Logged
Brian H
Community Organizer
Hero Member
**

Helpful Post Rating: 258
Posts: 11170


« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2010, 06:43:52 AM »

The warning labels on the CFLs and their boxes should also be followed.
Logged
Dr.Fiero
Full Member
***

Helpful Post Rating: 7
Posts: 71


« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2010, 08:01:31 AM »

And toss low voltage track lighting into the mix of 'do not use with dimmers'.

I killed a (ws467?) and a couple of track lights already.  No fire (or I probably wouldn't be typing this!) but BOY were they hot!
I'm sure not all are made the same way - but whatever mine was, it didn't like it.

Logged
dave w
Hero Member
*****

Helpful Post Rating: 124
Posts: 5262


« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2010, 07:38:44 AM »

FWIW

[Rant ON]
Since this thread has come back to life my two cents is this:
I have been a participant on this forum since it began, and a user of X10 control/automation products since 1979 when their "pilot marketing" hit south Florida.

There simply is no "history" of X10 modules "bursting" into flames. IMHO where X10 modules have overheated or went thermo nuclear, there were probably external factors which caused it. Non incandescent bulbs connected to modules that X10 has clearly labelled "Incandescent Bulbs Only" , modules used in wet locations, modules with loads exceeding their stated load maximums, external shorts on the load side of the module, etc. etc. I am regularly amazed at continual abuse of users expecting lamp modules and dimmer wall switches to run ceiling fans, or CFL bulbs, or LED bulbs.

I think one exception is the 500W rating on the WS467 and WS12 switchers. IMHO running 500watts might be OK if the WS467 is mounted in a metal wall box, but when mounted in a plastic box with a big decorative wooden plate over the top, really impedes the switches ability to dissipate heat.

[Rant OFF]
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 10:04:13 AM by dave w » Logged

"This aftershave makes me look fat"
Brian H
Community Organizer
Hero Member
**

Helpful Post Rating: 258
Posts: 11170


« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2010, 08:42:52 AM »

One more point.
Two WS467s or WS12As next to each other should be derated wattage wise.
Other brands warn users. To lower the total wattage for each dimmer type switch next to each other. In the electrical box.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

X10.com | About X10 | X10 Security Systems | X10 Mini Timer
© Copyright 2013 X10.com All rights reserved.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!