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Author Topic: Problem MS16A?  (Read 10421 times)

tim

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Problem MS16A?
« on: March 15, 2008, 02:05:18 AM »

Hi folks.  I am not sure if I use the ActivieEye motion sensor correctly.  I put one in the guest bathroom to turn on the light after dark.  First, I set the delay motion for 5 minutes.  That doesn't seem to work too well unless my guest is really fast in the bathroom.  It seems even someone is in there (sitting on the toliet), at 5 minutes mark, the light will turn off.  He needs to move his hand around the MS16A for the light to come back on.  Then I set the delay for 30 minutes and even my guest left the bathroom in 10 minutes, the light will still stay on for another 20 minutes.  Is that the way the sensor suppose to work:
1. Once it is trigger, it will turn on for the duration of the delay minutes even no motion is detected.
2. If motion is detected at the delay mark (for example 2 minutes), it will not send the off signal and will continue turn on for another 2 minutes.  In other word, it won't check until 2 minutes later.
3. If an object does not have a lot of movement (sitting on the toliet), the sensor will consider no motion?
Am I correct about the way on how the motion sensor work?  Is there any suggestion on how to use the sensor in the bathroom?  I don't want my guest to be sitting in the dark all the sudden.  My solution right now is set the delay for 30 minutes and ask my guest to turn off the light when he leave.  Is there a better way?  Thanks in advance.
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PajamaGuy

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2008, 05:25:45 AM »

Well, it's pretty difficult to sit for 2 minutes in front of a motion detector without triggering it.  Of course, if one fell asleep... but then, they'd probably want the lights off anyway.

Quote
In other word, it won't check until 2 minutes later.
- I think it "checks" about every 8 seconds, resetting the delay each time.  It takes 2 minutes of no motion (checking every 8 seconds) to cause an OFF.

Try it!  See if there's a problem.
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PajamaGuy
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tim

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 12:43:32 AM »

Thanks for the reply.  I wonder if the sensor is just not "seeing" the person in the bathroom once the light turn on.  It is a pretty small bathroom.  As I walk in, the light turn on.  Then I sit in front of it and wave my hand every 30 to 40 sec. but I don't see the red light blink.  Then at 2 minutes mark, the light turn off.  In about 8 sec. (you are right, it check every 8 secs), it "see" me again and turn the light on.  It seems that once the light turn on, the motion sensor see me as background heat.  No matter how much movement (waving hand or moving the body) it see, it won't register.  Any suggestion?
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PajamaGuy

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2008, 06:31:21 AM »

Motion sensors work much better if they're looking for motion at 45° rather than head-on.  Try positioning it off to the side a tad.
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PajamaGuy
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jtykal

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2008, 06:29:22 PM »

Motion detectors work by sensing a CHANGE in temperature using an infrared sensor. Standing (or in your case, sitting  ;)) still in front of a motion detector will generally not trigger it. As PajamaGuy suggests, motion detectors or more sensitive to movement side-to-side rather than directly toward or away from the sensor.
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tim

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2008, 07:36:51 PM »

Thanks for the reply and suggestion from PajamaGuy and jtykal.  I had been adjusting and sitting in that bathroom for nearly an hour.  The motion sensor is just not responding once it is turned on.  I even put 2 in there to test it out and it just won't detect.  However, once it goes dark, 8 sec. later, it will turn the light back on.  It let me to conclude that once a dark room turn into a very bright room, the sensor no longer can sense anything unless it is dark again.  In the dark bathroom, a slight movement will trigger the on switch.  However, in a lighted bathroom, even major movement (waving arm, walking back and forward and the sensor is at 45 degree) will not trigger it.  Somehow, anyone in that bright room become background noise.  I put the same sensor in my office, set it up for 2 minute and I can see it check every 8 second (with minor movement I can see the red light blink).   I am planning to setup 2 sensor for this bathroom.  One inside (set for 30 minutes) and one outside (set for 2 minutes).  When I walk in the bathroom, it will trigger the 30 minutes one, then as I walk outside it will trigger the 2 minutes one which will turn off the light in 2 minute.  Will that work?  I really don't want to do the above step because if someone pass through the 2nd sensor, it will turn off the light in the bathroom while someone is in there.  Any suggestion is appreciated!  Thanks in advance.
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Puck

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2008, 09:28:32 PM »

Sounds like you need to program your MS16A to detect motion at all times.  ;)
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tim

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2008, 10:35:26 PM »

Thanks for the reply.  You got it.  After scratching my head for hours, I finally figure it out.  Since I set that motion sensor only to work at dark, once it see the light, it thinks it is not dark anymore and stop working.  Setting the sensor to work all the time works great with the exception that it will turn on the light even it is quite bright inside the bathroom.  I guess there is no other way to get around it?  Thanks again.
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PajamaGuy

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 09:30:32 AM »

Huh?  I'm scratching my head? 
If the room is normally dark enough to need a light every time you enter, having the motion sensor set to the Dusk-Dawn option should work.  Once you enter the room, the light stays on as long as there is motion, once the sensor STOPS detecting motion for the length of time the delay is set for, it issues an OFF - the lights go off and it drops back to the Dusk-Dawn sensitivity.  If the lights go off because you are not causing motion often enough, increase the delay.

Bbbbbut - if you have ambient light that negates the Dusk-Dawn feature, and/or you want the lights to come on EVERY time you enter the room, disable the Dusk-Dawn feature.  In either case, if you are getting an OFF signal while you're still in the room, either extend the delay, or move the sensor so it picks up on the motion from a different angle.  Or use 2 sensors and follow RebHawks's  "Multiple Motion Sensors To Cover One Room" at http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14801.0
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PajamaGuy
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Puck

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 11:14:17 AM »

Huh?  I'm scratching my head? 
If the room is normally dark enough to need a light every time you enter, having the motion sensor set to the Dusk-Dawn option should work.  Once you enter the room, the light stays on as long as there is motion, once the sensor STOPS detecting motion for the length of time the delay is set for, it issues an OFF - the lights go off and it drops back to the Dusk-Dawn sensitivity.  If the lights go off because you are not causing motion often enough, increase the delay.

The problem is this:

In the dark room, motion turns the lights ON.

Now that the room is light, the detector no longer detects motion, and therefore it will not reset the count-down to the OFF signal.

At the programmed OFF delay, out go the lights.


I have experienced this myself with an ActiveEye. It was nice to have the *immediate-lights-ON* response to the initial motion, but the non-resetting OFF was not acceptable. I changed it back to detect motion always and let AHP control when it is suppose to come on; it's slower coming ON initially, but the light doesn't turn off until all motion ceases.
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PajamaGuy

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2008, 12:25:08 PM »

Quote
Now that the room is light, the detector no longer detects motion

Is that because it's set to Dusk-Dawn?  (I run all mine through AHP and don't use Dusk-Dawn)  After finding the following for the HawkEye's and assuming the EagleEye's are the same - (..seems that AHP is the only solution.   :-\ :)


 "If you place it in a dark corner it might not be able to tell the difference between day time and night time. Care should also be taken not to place the MS13A near the light it is controlling, otherwise when the light turns on it might “fool” the MS13A into thinking it’s daytime!"

...so I'm still scratching.  It's a bathroom, right.  When wouldn't one want the light to come on?  Why would one set it to Dusk-Dawn anyway?

I like RebHawk solution - it's even elegant enough to not run the light at 100% at night!
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PajamaGuy
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Puck

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 12:34:15 PM »

Is that because it's set to Dusk-Dawn?

Yes.

Quote
(I run all mine through AHP and don't use Dusk-Dawn)

Same here... may be slower, but gives you 100% control of what happens.

Quote
It's a bathroom, right.  When wouldn't one want the light to come on?  Why would one set it to Dusk-Dawn anyway?

Bathroom probably has a window and doesn't need to waste power on lights during the day. Other than that, you are right, no need to have that feature activated.
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Puck

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 03:32:06 PM »

It seems even someone is in there (sitting on the toliet), at 5 minutes mark, the light will turn off.  He needs to move his hand around the MS16A for the light to come back on. 

If you use AHP w/OnAlert, you could have the motion sensor turn the light on as you enter the bathroom; then use a DS10A to detect when the toilet seat is up and use that as a condition to NOT turn the light off when the motion detector times out.  :D
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tim

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2008, 01:50:18 AM »

Thanks for all the reply espeically Puck.  The bathroom is just as you describe, there is a window and it is quite bright during the daytime which is why I don't need the light to turn on in the daytime.  By setting the motion sensor to turn on all the time, it works great and by setting it to check for every 4 minutes really ensure there will be motion.  I set it at 2 minutes first but I have a few complaint about people being in the dark.  Of course, I really don't want the light to stay on for 4 minutes when no one is around and it will be nice to have the light off during the daytime.  The bathroom is really not that big and I don't think I need to put a second senor in there.
Although I have the AHP software, I really haven't use it that much.  Is it possible to setup the motion sensor to work at specific time (6 pm - 6 am) by using the AHP?  Also, the toliet is one of those unit that flush, open and close the lid by itself.  I don't think I want to put another unit to this toliet.  I can live with the 4 minute delay off time but able to not turn on the light during the daytime will be great.  Any suggestion?   Thanks in advance.
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Puck

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Re: Problem MS16A?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2008, 01:51:11 PM »

Is it possible to setup the motion sensor to work at specific time (6 pm - 6 am) by using the AHP?

Yes you can; with AHP you can set up time conditions.

If you use AHP, here is another suggestion: place the MS16A where it will only see motion by the door. Then you can create a macro that will turn the light on during the initial motion (entering the bathroom), then the second motion detection (during exit) can be used for turning the light off.
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