Safe to combine CFLs and Incandescent on a WS467?

[ITguy]

Hi all,

Here's my situation:  I have a long hall with three recessed light fixtures controlled by a 4-way switch setup (3 switches).  I know if I put CFLs in all three fixtures, the WS467 probably won't work well.  I'm wondering, though, if I could put a 40 watt incandescent in just one fixture and CFLs in the other two?  These would only be controlled by AHP and local control, so I can pretty much be sure it would never dim.

Is it safe to do this or is there some danger because of the CFLs and the chance (though slim) of having them dim?

Thanks!

ITguy

[Dan Lawrence]

I would be very careful. CFLs and incandescent bulbs should never be mixed.  A WS467 will allow dimming, but unless the CFLs are also dimable, never, ever use AHP to dim it.  If the attached timers for the WS467 do not require dimming, you are safe.

[dave w]

I am not sure anyone can "guarantee" it to be safe, but I use incandescent bulb/CFLs  in a ceiling fan and some outside lights, and all works well. I have GE CFLs, and I DO NOT dim them. But who knows, you might have a problem.

One thing to remember is: when controlling a new "soft start" WS467 locally, if you hold the button down too long, the light will start to dim, and will remember this slightly dimmer setting the next time it is turned ON. So over time you accidentally and slowly dim the CFLs.

Your "what if it gets dimmed" question really depends on the brand of CFL. A good test which should be done would be to dim the WS467 about 25% and then 50% and check for smoke, stinking, or overheating at each level after a period of time. An alternative is to use only dimmable CFLs in the non-incandescent fixture.  

 
Also some CFLs generate a lot of noise which may cause silliness like not being able to turn the WS467 OFF remotely.  

[ITguy]

Thanks, guys!  I think I'll try some good-quality dimmable CFLs, along with the one incandescent to make the WS467 "happy".  Do you think the incandescent should be in the fixture closest to the WS467, or does it not matter?

Thanks again!

ITguy

[dave w]

As far as the leakage current through the incandescent bulb which ends up providing power to the switch while in the OFF state, no, location will not matter, just must be the same circuit. However IF the CFLs were noisy, perhaps putting the incandescent close to the switch would make a slight difference. Jeff, or Boiler, care to weigh in on that speculation?

[Brian H]

My thoughts run the same. Closer maybe slightly better.

[ITguy]

Thanks again, guys!  Now off to search for affordable dimmable CFLs.

ITguy

[Mellowmark]

Hey some data found while shopping.   curious info on  dimming ccfl lamps 
Picked this up at a thousand bulbs dot.com  .
Move this info to a better place if you guys like.

Installing
Dimmable Cold Cathode Fluorescent Light Bulbs
Please understand that dimmable cold cathode fluorescent (CCFL) light bulbs
will not work properly at the same voltage settings used for incandescent light
bulbs. If you simply replace your incandescent light bulbs without adjusting your
dimmer, your new dimmable CCFL light bulbs will flicker and extinguish at the
low voltage setting. Therefore, we recommend the following procedure when
installing dimmable CCFL light bulbs:
1. Turn off the power to your current incandescent light bulbs.
2. Replace the incandescents with your new dimmable CCFL light bulbs.
3. Re-energize the lighting circuit with your dimmer in the “full light” setting.
4. Slowly dim your new CCFL light bulbs until they just begin to flicker.
5. From that point, raise the light level slightly until all CCFL light bulbs are
operating without flicker at a dimmed level. Set this level as your new “low
setting.”
This procedure should prevent flickering, extinguishing at low levels, and early
failure of CCFL light bulbs. If, however, these difficulties occur, replace any
CCFL light bulb with an incandescent light bulb. The addition of an
incandescent or inductive load will stop the flicker, allow a lower light level
setting, and should prolong the life of your CCFL light bulbs.
Please let us know if we can help in any other way.
Paul Coppage, LC, LEED AP
VP Product Development and Training
1000Bulbs.com
pcoppage@1000Bulbs.com

[Brian H]

I  have had very poor results with my CCFL bulbs. Four out of eight in service have died or gotten intermitant. I don't even try to dim them and use relay type modules to control them.

http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=6fu88pverdbpatln8mdonunk70&topic=17141.0

[ebpDoug]

I have used this sort of arrangement for about two years in three different circuits. In two, the incandescent lamp is in the same fixture as the CFL. In one they are in separate fixtures about 3 metres apart.
The inc't lamp provides the necessary power and signal path for the control module, and "hold current" for the triac. You can probably get away with an inc't lamp of 10 to 15W or less, but you may need to experiment a bit.
You can dim the incandescent lamp somewhat even with non-dimmable CFLs.
I would recommend using CFLs to no more than about a third of the the module's normal power rating. The power factor (harmonic content, not phase relationship) of ordinary CFLs is dismal.

I also use a plug-in type dimmer module with a switched-mode "ballast" for a 3 watt LED fixture. It works fine for on/off control, but I don't attempt to dim (I've tried it - it works to a very limited extent).

[Bob W.]

Thanks again, guys!  Now off to search for affordable dimmable CFLs.

I'd love to hear your results. If you find CFLs which dim, brighten, and otherwise behave themselves under X10 control, please share the details.

[ITguy]

Well, I give up!  After searching what seems like  a thousand CFL websites, I just can't find anything that seems both safe and affordable.  Some particularly good basic info was found at
http://www.cfluniversenew.com/servlet/the-template/dimmablecflfaq/Page

Notice the part about "Each time that you use the bulbs (after the initial burn-in), allow the bulbs to come to full brightness (about 30 seconds after turning on) before adjusting the brightness if desired."

I also found multiple sites that warned "for use with rotary or slide dimmers only.  Do not use with soft-start dimmers!"

I'm sure there are some bulbs somewhere that would work, but at about $7.00 and up, that would put me at $21 just for the bulbs.  Since I didn't care about the dimming anyway, I've decided I'd rather just use the WS467 somewhere else, and buy a 3-way relay-type switch setup for this particular use.

ITguy

[Brian H]

Just remember that the relay type switches need a Neutral wire to operate. So a neutral is needed in the switch's box and not all White Wires are a real Neutral. White in a switch loop may not be Neutral.

[mike]

Might be right time to consider LED replacement bulbs....  they dim  nicely on softstart and reg old fashion modules here.  getting low enough in price to consider if bought on ebay.  for instance, $ 15 gets full size flood light size using about 11 watts and outputing about 60 watts worth of incade. e quiv (forget the lumens).  only problem is current draw is so low some are slightly lit even when off- but that makes nice night lights in the rooms too!  I have 3' tubes that look like the 4' flor bulbs that put out quite a bit of light too.