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Author Topic: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation  (Read 24391 times)

VMAN244

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Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« on: October 15, 2009, 11:35:53 PM »

I want to modify one of my Appliance Modules to have the relay in momentary operation.


I found this image:


But this seems to be an older schematic. I looked at my appliance module and nothing looks the same as that schematic.


I would like to know if someone could tell me what exactly I must do to have my appliance module work in momentary operation.


Thanks.

Here are some pics of my module


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Brian H

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2009, 06:32:31 AM »

I don't think we have seen any data on the new improved CFL friendly {X10's sales description} Appliance Modules.
I believe they also don't have Local Control Sensing anymore.

Maybe I can poke around one and see what can be found out.
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dave w

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2009, 05:13:48 PM »

Sounds like you know electronics. What about using a Universal Module which can give you about a 2 sec momentary closure? If you want a momentary 120V then use the Universal Module to trigger a relay.

BTW the "Momentary mod" from Ido Bartanna for the old Appliance module was to break the "relay position" feedback line so the module's controller chip would not see the latching relay make contact. The chips response was to immediately fire the relay two more times. "Clickity, clickity, click" (Dave Rye's accurate description). So you actually had three very rapid closing and openings of the latching relay. All three cycles completed in less than a second. It wasn't a true "Momentary" of long duration.

If someone finds a way to "momentary" the new design Appliance Modules, my guess is they will react the same way,  "Clickity, clickity, click".
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Brian H

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2009, 06:18:08 PM »

Yes sounded like a machine gun going off. rofl
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glb7272

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2009, 01:29:54 PM »

Is x10 using the same chip 78570, or has that been changed as well? From the pic it looks like its only 14. I came across this post looking for info on pin 7 on the IC but I will post that elsewhere.

Instead of hacking the electrical side go mechanical. I would take the cam out that opens and closes the contact. Add epoxy to the 2 sides that allow the contact to stay closed So that it will be open on all 4 sides. then file down the 4 other edges so that it closes as the cam turns. The only problem is that the module may freak out (turning into a "machine gun")  when it sees the power as the cam spins. I tested to see what would happen if the contact was never closed by placing a piece of insulation between the contact. I pressed on from a remote it clicked once. I pressed on again and it clicked again. A few times during the test it did click twice. But pressing off it did not do anything at all.

What do you plan on using this for? Is that small of a pulse going to work? Is it ok if the module fails and stays in the on position?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 01:37:15 PM by glb7272 »
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VMAN244

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2009, 04:34:27 PM »

A small pulse should do what I need. I have some DPDT relays on a breadboard with transformers that will plug into my appliance module.
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glb7272

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2009, 08:40:38 PM »

Another idea.  The coil inside the module acts more like a solenoid than a typical relay thus i think the coil already acts as a latching momentary relay. Why not use the white leads that go to the coil and hook them up to an external relay. I am unsure what the existing coil is rated at.
You could also use a cap diode relay and a resistor to do the same thing  from the outlet side without opening the case. I do not know how to do the calculations for that though,  I am sure some of the others here could. Here is some info using 12vdc http://www.the12volt.com/relays/page5.asp

Why not do this mod http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/ came across it while looking for my own project but I think it would work.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 08:25:38 AM by glb7272 »
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Brian H

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 10:18:28 AM »

The coil is pulsed by an SCR from the Line to Neutral, through the coil. Since the drive to the SCR is a single pulse. It turns back off at its minimun holding current near Zero Crossing. I may look at one of the new CFL friendly ones and see what component is used in them vs the older ones.

I did see a 220 volt mod for an appliance module and for 220 they added a 100 Ohm 2 Watt resistor in series with the coil.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 11:52:55 AM by Brian H »
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Brian H

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 01:01:24 PM »

I looked at a new style CFL Friendly AM466 and a Black and Decker [OEM from X10] Freewire FWAR older style appliance modules.

Both used a Motorola MCR100-8 SCR
Both had the same resistance 56.5 Ohm coils in their relays.

Notes: Not 100% here but it looks like R14 330K 1/2 watt is the one that senses on or off. For the new version
          The 2.2K resistor; shown in the schematic; tied to point A. Is 33K in my older B&D. It was also 33K in a unit I documented awhile back.
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glb7272

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 01:08:47 PM »

Brian H I have been staring at that schematic for an hour I see the resistor was used to protect the coil from 220v as  far as I can see. I still have questions about pin 6 (mainly the caps and resistors after the output) on the IC but I guess I will quit hijacking this post and start a new one when the newer modules I ordered arrive. Does anyone have a schematic, I have looked all over the net for info on these to no avail.

OOPs looks like you posted as I was writing. Thanks for the info

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Brian H

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 01:50:15 PM »

The schematic at the beginning of the thread isn't the one showing the optional 220 components.

The 2.2k that I found being a 33K is the one used for Local Control Sensing.

Pin 6 (B) changes state (I think it goes high). .047uf charges through 33K and 1K in series to common. 33K and 1K divided down the pulse with the smaller portion on the SCR trigger. SCR triggers; pulsing the coil from Neutral through the SCR to Line which is the COMMON of the board.
I believe the .047uf across the 1K shapes the pulse and adds some noise immunity.

If 6 is normally High and goes low then the .047uf cap on B discharges and the pulse is the opposite polarity.

I also have to think real carefully when looking at many X10 modules. Many have the Line tied to common and the power supply has positive on common and the whole system uses -V for power. So I have to think in negative logic.  rofl

Line on common also means extra care with meters and Scopes that most times have a grounded shield on the probes. BANG!  ???
I have a small AC Isolation Transformer; I use when testing. It is a little safer that way.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 02:53:27 PM by Brian H »
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glb7272

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 08:54:07 PM »

Brian H I am looking at the same schematic posted elsewhere, made a lot more "sense".

Pin 6 (B) changes state (I think it goes high). .047uf charges through 33K and 1K in series to common. 33K and 1K divided down the pulse with the smaller portion on the SCR trigger. SCR triggers; pulsing the coil from Neutral through the SCR to Line which is the COMMON of the board.
I believe the .047uf across the 1K shapes the pulse and adds some noise immunity.

If 6 is normally High and goes low then the .047uf cap on B discharges and the pulse is the opposite polarity.]Pin 6 (B) changes state (I think it goes high). .047uf charges through 33K and 1K in series to common. 33K and 1K divided down the pulse with the smaller portion on the SCR trigger. SCR triggers; pulsing the coil from Neutral through the SCR to Line which is the COMMON of the board.
I believe the .047uf across the 1K shapes the pulse and adds some noise immunity.

If 6 is normally High and goes low then the .047uf cap on B discharges and the pulse is the opposite polarity. Ok I am really new to electronics but I can "see" what you are saying. Off to do more reading. I found a site that does a great job explaining how electronics work (especially transistors in this case as they resemble a scr)

Line on common also means extra care with meters and Scopes that most times have a grounded shield on the probes. BANG!  Huh  rofl I bet you learned that the hard way.

One again Thank you
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 09:26:49 PM by -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) »
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glb7272

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Re: Appliance Module AM486 Momentary Operation
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2009, 09:21:07 PM »

In case someone else is reading this. To answer the OP question remove or clip R14  (the resistor at the socket end of the board) When controlled by remote control   the on button will cycle the relay 2 positions. If it is on to start out with it will cycle on then off then on . If it is off to start out with it will cycle off-on-off. I would have tried to send signals from an cm11a but lucky me the psu on my windows pc decided to die   B:( (at least I will not have to look at 6 pop up screens telling me that drivers are not installed that I am already aware of and a message telling me not to shut the pc off after I told it to shut down while it updates then another screen telling me to reboot so changes can be made who the hell is running this show me or MS sorry about the rant wow I feel better and will look into anger management courses)
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