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Author Topic: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?  (Read 31057 times)

BoyntonStu

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Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« on: July 28, 2010, 11:11:38 AM »

I am setting up a system that cannot tolerate battery failure.

Everything is inside the house not exposed to rain etc.

I want to control a single appliance with a countdown timer.

I will use the TM752 transceiver.

If any of multiple MS10 type motion sensors detect movement, I want the AM466 to turn on and be on for a set time.

The system must not fail due to a dead battery.

I am thinking of using rechargeable Lithium batteries in the MS10's and wiring them to a 3 volt battery eliminator.

I may have to add a resistor to prevent overcharging.

Ideas, suggestions?
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Puck

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2010, 12:54:40 PM »

I will use the TM752 transceiver.

If any of multiple MS10 type motion sensors detect movement, I want the AM466 to turn on and be on for a set time.

FYI: The MS10A will not work with a TM752(TM751??) transceiver. You may want to use the standard type that sends an X10 signal.

Quote
I want to control a single appliance with a countdown timer.

Are you using software? The equipment you listed will not provide a timer. The standard X10 motion sensors will send an off signal after a certain time of no motion.
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dave w

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2010, 01:35:29 PM »

I am setting up a system that cannot tolerate battery failure.

The system must not fail due to a dead battery.

I am thinking of using rechargeable Lithium batteries in the MS10's and wiring them to a 3 volt battery eliminator.

Ideas, suggestions?

I use a 3V DC wall wart to float two NiCad batteries in a X10 xxxxEye motion detector. This works well.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCTX-31/3VDC-100MA-WALL-TRANSFORMER//1.html

I would not use Lithiums since they are much more critical of charging parameters and tend to explode at small provocation. I have had two CR123's explode in the charger for no good reason.

However I seriously question the use of X10 and your statement of "The system must not fail due to due to a dead battery".

Can the system tolerate missing a movement signal from a motion detector, or missing an ON or OFF signal to the Appliance Module?

X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.
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JeffVolp

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2010, 02:56:09 PM »

X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.

That was my thought exactly when I read the first post earlier today.  Even though our reliability here is very close to 100%, I would not use X10 for a function that absolutely has to work.  However, I am coming from the world of designing high-reliability systems for military and spacecraft applications, so my idea of reliability may not be the same as someone familiar with commercial devices.

For highest reliability, a hardwired alarm system is probably the best.

Jeff
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BoyntonStu

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2010, 03:03:30 PM »

I am setting up a system that cannot tolerate battery failure.

The system must not fail due to a dead battery.

I am thinking of using rechargeable Lithium batteries in the MS10's and wiring them to a 3 volt battery eliminator.

Ideas, suggestions?

I use a 3V DC wall wart to float two NiCad batteries in a X10 xxxxEye motion detector. This works well.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCTX-31/3VDC-100MA-WALL-TRANSFORMER//1.html

I would not use Lithiums since they are much more critical of charging parameters and tend to explode at small provocation. I have had two CR123's explode in the charger for no good reason.

However I seriously question the use of X10 and your statement of "The system must not fail due to due to a dead battery".

Can the system tolerate missing a movement signal from a motion detector, or missing an ON or OFF signal to the Appliance Module?

X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.

Thanks,

I am slowly gaining ground.

First, I asked X10 if the MS10 was compatible with the TM751 receiver.

They (X10 chat) said yes.

Their statement contradicts;

"FYI: The MS10A will not work with a TM752(TM751??) transceiver."

Do I need to use an MS16a instead of an MS10a?

What I need is a timed appliance that is turned on when the transceiver gets an input.

As long as there is a signal from a motion detector, the appliance is on.

BTW Apparently a single appliance may be directly plugged into the TM751 thus eliminating the need for an AM466.

When the receiver does not see an input signal, a timer counts down to zero and the appliance is turned off.

Please advise.



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Brian H

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2010, 03:36:27 PM »

Motion sensors don't send a constant On signal.
They send an On signal then if there is no additional motion detected. It times out and sends an Off.
Continued motion will send additional Ons and reset the timeout counter.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Comparison_of_All_Motion_Sensors

From the chart you can see that some are fixed and some are adjustable..
If more than one see motion each would send an On but if all that triggered didn't continue to see motion one would eventually time out and send an Off.
You may need something with intelligence to get better control over the timers in a motion sensor.

The TM751 is hard wired to Unit Code 1 and you pick the House Code on the dial. Also it has no power line receiver in it so you could not turn it On or Off by another controller sending power line signals.

I can say my system is almost 100% reliable, but maybe 1 or 2 times a year. I have one under counter light that misses a command.

Also if there is a power interuption to the TM751 or Appliance Module. It will stay in the state it was in at power loss. Like if it was On. It will be on again when the power is restored.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 04:36:36 PM by Brian H »
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BoyntonStu

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2010, 04:32:38 PM »

OK The MS16 has a 0-60 minute analog timer and an incremental 0-255 min digital timer.  Perfect.


Let's assume that there are 2 MS16 sensors and each is set to 30 minute off delay.

Both sensors will be programmed to A1.


The first one senses at 0, the second at +15.

At time +30 will the off pulse from sensor #1 turn off the appliance even though sensor #2 timer is still running?

My guess is yes.

That may be a problem, I'm not certain.

Will they work the TM751 to turn on an appliance?


« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 04:34:11 PM by BoyntonStu »
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Brian H

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2010, 04:41:43 PM »

Yes the one started at 0 may turn off the module if no more motion was seen by it even if the +15 sees more motion.

Yes a TM751 can be turned on and off by a motion sensors RF signal. Limitation would be Unit Code has to be 1. House Code on dial of TM751 matches the House Code set in the motion sensor.
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BoyntonStu

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2010, 04:58:20 PM »

Yes the one started at 0 may turn off the module if no more motion was seen by it even if the +15 sees more motion.

Yes a TM751 can be turned on and off by a motion sensors RF signal. Limitation would be Unit Code has to be 1. House Code on dial of TM751 matches the House Code set in the motion sensor.

Thanks, you are very helpful.

OK I am trying to solve the conflict to keep the appliance operating without interruption until the last sensor times out.

It seems like  gate logic is required.

If sensor #1 sends OFF and IF there were 2 ONs don't turn off until #2 times out.

Is this possible?

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dave w

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2010, 05:47:07 PM »

Yes but with home automation conditional  control only

You would need the CM15A computer interface with AHP software and Smart Macro (conditional macro capabilities) plug-in.

I think this "newsletter" (what a laugh) has a "Certified New" CM15 and Active Home Pro software pretty cheap. You would need the Smart Macro plug-in also.
http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_ed_loaded_sd.html#up2
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dbemowsk

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2010, 05:56:41 PM »

It looks like you are trying to keep this to only a few modules, but with a CM15A ( and ActiveHome Pro with smart macros of course), the motion sensors, and an appliance module, this could be done very easily.  Using smart macros, have the macro handle the timer and the meat of the operation.  You could have the macro set up so that if the first motion sensor sensed motion, it would trigger the timer in the macro.  When the second motion sensor sensed motion, it would reset the timer. If you set it up so the motion sensors triggered the macro, and the macro activated the appliance module, there would be no worry of either motion sensor prematurely shutting off  the appliance module.

Unfortunately going with this solution would mean spending a bit more on the modules and software.
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Brian H

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2010, 06:32:45 PM »

This promotion is slightly more but includes all the plug in software.
Stick-A-Switch and a Socket Rocket.
http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_ed_freesuite_onalert_decade.html

I believe Smart Macros is $49.99 alone if not in a package deal.

Although the CM15A AHP Interface is not known for long RF signal reception. It has the ability to receive the motion sensor signal directly. No TM751 should be needed.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 06:44:25 PM by Brian H »
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BoyntonStu

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2010, 07:30:05 PM »

This promotion is slightly more but includes all the plug in software.
Stick-A-Switch and a Socket Rocket.
http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_ed_freesuite_onalert_decade.html

I believe Smart Macros is $49.99 alone if not in a package deal.

Although the CM15A AHP Interface is not known for long RF signal reception. It has the ability to receive the motion sensor signal directly. No TM751 should be needed.

Thanks,  but I need to do it with just using  x10 modules.

Is there a non-computer solution?

I believe that I found it:

Buy an appliance module for each sensor; each with their own code.

Wire the appliance so that any AM466 will enable it  (parallel).

Thus, the last turn on will be the last turn off!







« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 07:57:22 PM by BoyntonStu »
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Brian H

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2010, 08:09:20 PM »

That sounds like it could work.
Good simple solution.  :)%

Let us know how it works out for you.
The only thing I can think of maybe the On Off sensor circuit in the appliance module. If it gets an Off command and the other one is On. Will it fire a few times before giving up.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 08:13:10 PM by Brian H »
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BoyntonStu

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Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2010, 08:25:13 PM »

That sounds like it could work.
Good simple solution.  :)%

Let us know how it works out for you.
The only thing I can think of maybe the On Off sensor circuit in the appliance module. If it gets an Off command and the other one is On. Will it fire a few times before giving up.


There is a separate AM for each sensor.

Think of 4 AM's, 4 black wires, and 4 common white wires.

The appliance to be controlled has 4 black wires going to it.

If any black wire is energized, the appliance is ON.

The appliance does not detect whether 1, 2,3, or 4 black wires are energized.

The appliance will turn off when the last black wire is de-energized.

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