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The Buster PiX10Hub is here! Created by the Community, for the Community.:)% #:)

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Author Topic: Returning to the fray?  (Read 15159 times)

mike

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Re: Returning to the fray?
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2011, 07:17:06 PM »

fire
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JeffVolp

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Re: Returning to the fray?
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2011, 08:23:30 PM »

The only portion of this current that generates heat, in other words IR drop across those inductors inside the XPPF filter, is the IN PHASE current.

I'm afraid that is incorrect.  ALL the current that flows through the inductors generate IR loss, which is heat.  You can't have current flow through a resistance without IR loss.  The fact that the current is out of phase with the voltage means that it doesn't contribute to the power recorded by the electric meter.  It does cause losses in the transmission lines that deliver that energy, which is why the power company doesn't like it.

If you measure your fluorescent lights with a meter that can indicate both watts and VA, you will probably find the VA number is significantly higher.  THAT may be the reason your XPPF failed.

I defend the XPPF because it is probably the best filter available for low and moderate current applications.  It works very well when not overloaded.  The fact that you managed to burn one up doesn't mean that when properly used they are a dangerous product.  Many products are dangerous when improperly used.  If these filters commonly burst into flames at loads well under their rating as you first asserted, I would expect to see MANY more reports of such damage with the large number of them in service.

FYI, I have a few more years in this business than you do.  A good portion of my work involved fault-tolerant equipment, so I am very familiar with failure modes and stresses on components.  However, only when I began comparing the difference between the wattage and VA numbers for some representative reactive loads did I become aware of how significant this issue can be.

Jeff
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doug-x10

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Re: Returning to the fray?
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2011, 09:40:07 PM »

 :)+

I would just like to say that this has been one of the best threads I have read on this forum. It should be mandatory reading for all people starting out. I too made my purchase about 15 months ago and then started my education on 2 phases and line noise. It took all the fun out of initial purchase.
 B:(

Not having a lot of time to muck about, I have continued to follow the forum and appreciate all the fantastic people offering their help here. But this one post has beautifully summarized what every X10 beginner should know from the start. I now feel much better armed with the information I need to make all this work so much better. Thanks to all that have contributed and I hope this post becomes a sticky.
 -:)
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ggrote

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Re: Returning to the fray?
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2011, 10:18:36 PM »

Really good stuff, guys ... I'll be handing out "helpfuls" after I post this ... thanks very much.

The guy who wired my house put in a lot of circuits ... my 200A main panel has 42 available slots, 29 110V breakers and 5 220V (dryer, range, water heater, A/C, and shop sub-panel), so I have 2 empty slots on one side of my panel and 1 slot on the other.

As it happens, my son's in-laws are registered electricians, but they live 120 miles away and are VERY nice people so I hate to bother them ... but I'll bet I could get some tips.  And I do have the book that I used to wire my shop in the last house, so I'll have to dig it up and see what it says about working in panels.

And I have a closet full of X10 stuff that I bought before I realized that it wasn't going to be as easy as I had hoped.

I haven't decided to pull the trigger yet, but I'm leaning ...  ;D
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"If you're not having fun, lower your standards."

Brian H

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Re: Returning to the fray?
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2011, 06:46:41 AM »

Jeff; I have been doing some tests with my Kill A Watt Meter and was surprised at some of the PF readings and Watt vs VA readings.

Some of these so called energy efficient CFLs have a PF of around .5  :P
My CCFLs and LEDs are closer to .9

I also read about some countries where they are in full standard light bulb bans.
Having power distribution problems. The harmonic noise and out of phase issues. Are causing the automatic regulation devices to trip off on faults.

My ancient electronic school memories. Also said all current flows through an inductor even if out of phase to the voltage applied.
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pomonabill221

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Re: Returning to the fray?
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2011, 12:55:20 AM »

The only portion of this current that generates heat, in other words IR drop across those inductors inside the XPPF filter, is the IN PHASE current.

I'm afraid that is incorrect.  ALL the current that flows through the inductors generate IR loss, which is heat.  You can't have current flow through a resistance without IR loss.  The fact that the current is out of phase with the voltage means that it doesn't contribute to the power recorded by the electric meter.  It does cause losses in the transmission lines that deliver that energy, which is why the power company doesn't like it.

If you measure your fluorescent lights with a meter that can indicate both watts and VA, you will probably find the VA number is significantly higher.  THAT may be the reason your XPPF failed.

I defend the XPPF because it is probably the best filter available for low and moderate current applications.  It works very well when not overloaded.  The fact that you managed to burn one up doesn't mean that when properly used they are a dangerous product.  Many products are dangerous when improperly used.  If these filters commonly burst into flames at loads well under their rating as you first asserted, I would expect to see MANY more reports of such damage with the large number of them in service.

FYI, I have a few more years in this business than you do.  A good portion of my work involved fault-tolerant equipment, so I am very familiar with failure modes and stresses on components.  However, only when I began comparing the difference between the wattage and VA numbers for some representative reactive loads did I become aware of how significant this issue can be.

Jeff

Hi Jeff!!!  Thanks a BUNCH for the info.
I recently bought several XPPF's and they work GREAT!!!  I just wish they had a higher current rating.
I do have a Kill-a-watt, and you mention that you used yours to measure the VA and Watts of loads.
Would the KAWatt be the final answer to find out if the load that the XPPF is seeing is within it's operating range, so as to not create a charcoal briquet?
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JeffVolp

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Re: Returning to the fray?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2011, 01:37:06 AM »


To be conservative, try to keep both the VA and wattage number under 300.  They will get warm and may start to stink when pushed to their max rating.

Jeff
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stoney

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Re: Returning to the fray?
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2011, 04:56:49 PM »

Thanks for the additional information as well as the caution with  these and other electric / electronic products.
We all sometimes take such things for granted and I agree, this should be required reading by X-10'ers of all levels. :)+
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