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Author Topic: Dimmable LED bulbs.  (Read 8234 times)
kumar
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« on: January 10, 2011, 08:03:34 PM »

There are dimmable LED bulbs in the market.
The power consumption of LED bulb is very low.
But this is not inductive load like CFL. Like to know X10 parts that will work for LED bulbs.
Switch.
Socket rocket.
Lamp modules.
Future is LED so like to buy parts that will work for LED also.

Please reply.
KR.
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Brian H
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2011, 04:25:20 AM »

It may depend on the LED bulbs electronics.
The real low power ones with many small LEDs may glow all the time. From local control sensing or appliance modules am I on or off sensing.

I have one brand of dimmable LED Bulb. Bought for tests and not in normal everyday lighting at present.

EcoSmart ECS 19 WW 120. 'A' Style. 9 watt. 3,000K. Like many LED bulbs. It is directional. The light is from the top. So in a table lamp the ceiling gets more of the light. In an overhead fixture pointing down. Most of the light is where you want it.

They worked well X10 Lamp Modules. I did notice with two of my newer soft start versions there where two levels where they seemed to pulse slightly. An older version was fine.
They seemed to be fine in a Socket Rocket.
They also seemed fine on a Smarthome SC2000 low end X10 compatible dimmer module.

I am sure others will have more data for you.
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JeffVolp
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2011, 06:53:10 AM »


CFLs do not present an inductive load like the magnetic ballasts in traditional fluorescent lights.  They use high-frequency electronic switching circuitry, which can radiate the noise that blocks X10 signals.  With LEDs, there are two basic technologies.  Some have a lot of LEDs connected in series, and use a rectifier and current limiter to provide the necessary current.  That could be as simple as a bridge rectifier and current limiting resistor.  The ones with just several high-power LEDs use a step-down switching regulator to produce the low-voltage high current necessary.  They can radiate noise just like CFLs.  In fact I have a Lumoform 4W 120V LED light that is the worst noise source I have ever come across.  It radiates a very strong signal right inside the X10 bandpass, and even caused a problem for a couple of Leviton switches (with AGC) on its circuit.   Because of this, I suspect that LEDs may become even more of a problem than CFLs as they proliferate.

Jeff
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Brian H
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2011, 07:09:04 AM »

Jeff's comments on noise. Prompted me to do some added tests.  Grin

With the EcoSmart LED bulbs and using the XTBM I found some added information.

Bulb on 120 Volts AC direct. No noise detected.
With a before soft start LM465. .15 volts noise at full On. Seemed to be better when being dimmed.
With a soft start LM465 On showed no noise. Now at one almost full On level. There was .33 volts noise. Above or below the one dim level. The noise seemed to go away.
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dave w
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 08:14:49 AM »

Kumar,
DIMMABLE LED's *should* work with:
Socket Rocket (not dimmable).
Lamp Module (dimmable)
Appliance Module less than two years old (not dimmable)
Three wire wall switches which require a neutral line.


LEDs will not work with any of the two wire wall switches (WS467, WS4777, WS12, PLW01, PLW02, etc).

As Jeff and Brian indicate, the 120V LED bulbs that have internal power supplies, even though dimmable, may generate excessive noise which blocks the X10 PLC signal. Usually these can be identified by having one, to four large LEDs in a spot light shell (PAR 20, 30, 38, etc).

http://cgi.ebay.com/E27-LED-Light-Bulb-AC-110V-3W-Spotlights-Lamp-White-/310285268105?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483e717489

The LED bulbs that have many small clear LEDs in a housing *usually* are not noise makers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/E27-Screw-Warm-White-104-LED-Light-Bulb-Lamp-Spotlight-/220717467585?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3363c947c1
http://cgi.ebay.com/1X-E27-3-8W-White-LIGHT-CORN-BULB-Lamp-78-Leds-110V-e7A-/220723248410?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3364217d1a

 It really becomes a "try and see" situation, no hard and fast guidelines.

FWIW, I have several of the 3 watt single LED spotlights that play well with Socket Rockets.
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JeffVolp
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 08:54:55 AM »

With a before soft start LM465. .15 volts noise at full On. Seemed to be better when being dimmed.
With a soft start LM465 On showed no noise. Now at one almost full On level. There was .33 volts noise. Above or below the one dim level. The noise seemed to go away.

If you think about that, it makes perfect sense.  Dimmers delay the turn on later in each half cycle as the bulb is dimmed.  X10 transmission takes place in the first millisecond after each zero crossing, so dimming the bulb even slightly moves the noise outside the X10 transmission window.

That brings to mind another possible way to deal with noisy devices.  Instead of filtering the noise, all that has to be done is disconnect the unit from the powerline during the first millisecond of each half cycle.

Jeff
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Brian H
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 09:52:20 AM »

I saw one of the EcoSmart bulbs dissected on an a web page.
Seems it uses a national Semiconductor LM3445 Dimmable LED Driver. It also has some power factor correction features.

Maybe the less than minimum rated load on the LM465 has something to do with it.
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kumar
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2011, 04:03:34 PM »

Thank you all.
I am happy with all the information you all provided.
KR
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systemdm
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 07:03:27 AM »

Curious if anyone has tried the pharox 300 with X10.  Woot is having a 50% promotional sale on these.  Still expensive, but maybe worth a try.


http://www.pharox-led.com/cms/woot50
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Noam
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 07:14:51 AM »

The picture of the package on their website shows it is NON-dimmable.
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Brian H
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2011, 07:47:49 AM »

That is strange as their main sales page for the Pharox 300 says it is dimmable with "SELECT Dimmers". The leading edge type.
The specifications tab lists the known to work dimmers.
http://www.pharox-led.com/cms/us/products/pharox300

One point. X10 dimmer wall switches steal power though the load and I doubt the Pharox 300 would work with it.
My EcoSmart bulbs will not work with a 2 wire X10 dimmer switch but are OK on a Lamp Module or Insteon Dimmer where there is a Neutral power wire.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 07:53:11 AM by Brian H » Logged
Noam
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 08:00:54 AM »

The original link posted to the WOOT deal was for the 300 (ND) model (ND = Not Dimmable). It looks like the coupon works on the dimmable one, too.
I have no idea if it will pass enough current to work with a switch that doesn't use a neutral wire.
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Brian H
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2011, 08:49:58 AM »

I can't even find a 300ND on their main web site.
Must be something special as they list the 300 as their flag ship LED bulb.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 08:53:27 AM by Brian H » Logged
Noam
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2011, 08:56:51 AM »

I can't even find a 300ND on their main web site.
Must be something special as they list the 300 as their flag ship LED bulb.


http://www.pharox-led.com/us/index.php/pharox-300-non-dimmable.html
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