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Author Topic: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10  (Read 7178 times)

nando1937

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ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« on: January 23, 2011, 11:43:44 AM »

I am a new member .
We have a number of problems with DC/AC Pure Sine Wave forms inverters that are used in homes not directly connected to the National Power Grid, these inverters may operate from 20 to 250 KHz PWM internal frequency to generate the Vac set at 60 or 50 HZ , though the sine wave filtered ( to produce the sine wave, ) NOISE still present at levels that may interfere with the X10 120 KHZ signal.

The X10 are not operating due to this noise, in addition, we may have the same problem caused by the newer electronic equipment like TVs.

I need a practical solution for the Inverter problems -- some of these inverter may have a power output from 500 to 5000 watts so I would like to know if there are, in the market, already designed and built, filters to be placed with the  Inverters to allow the operation of the X10 units and if not what have been done by the members to solve this problem if such problem has been presented.

Appreciate any assistance you can give me.

I was told that I was trying to  >*<

Nando
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Tuicemen

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2011, 12:11:47 PM »

I have no issues with my Magnum inverter. ::) :'
When you notice the issues is the inverter in charge mode?
I've recently installed a backup propane generator which may cause some issues while the inverter is in charge mode.
I haven't tested this as yet but I did notice a small amount of static on the phoneline during the generator run times.
I suspect regular noise filters may be enough to remedy this if I have a issue.
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nando1937

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2011, 12:25:32 PM »

Thanks for your reply.

The problem is basically constant since the Sine wave is there, all the time, so the inverter may be charging and supplying power a the same time.

Regular filters do not clean the noise since they are to not have enough level rejection of the noise.

We have NOT tried two of them in series, and that may be an answer that may be tested shortly.

Thanks and waiting  for more members replies to this problem.

The inverters may have different brands

Nando
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Tuicemen

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 01:36:11 PM »

Are you sure your using Pure Sine wave inverters?
Modified Sine wave inverters I know from the past are very noisy and infact can distroy X10 modules.
If the inverter doesn't state that it is A Pure Sine wave then you will have issues.
I had a inverter that stated it was a sine wave inverter, it turned out it was a Modified Sine wave not Pure!
Don't be fooled! ;)
 >!
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nando1937

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 02:59:13 PM »

Thanks for your reply.

My initial  message stated that the inverter is a Pure Sine Wave = (PSW) and I am sure of it, this problem is present with various  different brand DC/AC PSW inverters.

I am quite familiar  with both types and we check for the wave form.

Nando
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Tuicemen

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2011, 03:23:46 PM »

You say the problem exists with different brands DC/AC PSW inverters.
What brands have you tried?
Are you sure the issue is the inverter and not something else on your circits?
My Cottage is totally off grid and the only time I've noticed a issue is with a power tool and the initial start up of it.
Only that power tools power cycle will cause a false X10 signal to be seen.
This tool requires a large start up power draw as lights can be seen to dim with a start up.
What all are you running with your inverters?
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dave w

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2011, 05:10:39 PM »

An alternative might be to go with a purely RF system such as Z-Wave.
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nando1937

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2011, 06:33:21 PM »

TUICEMEN and DAVE:

There are several brands  some North American ( USA & Canada )  some European , some Asiatic, and  some from South America

The X10 systems are already in many places that need fixing ,so No Z-wave path, maybe with the new one YES.

Nando
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Tuicemen

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2011, 06:55:21 PM »

So this is not for your personal inverter?
Your trying to solve issues for other people that you have no idea of what they are powering with their inverters?
 ::)  :'
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Brian H

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2011, 07:22:07 PM »

Be careful if they are not pure sine wave outputs.
We have seen some modified sine wave units reported to fry the power line derived power supplies in X10 modules.
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nando1937

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 08:33:28 PM »

I do not have a personal inverter, I do assist other people troughout the world with the problems they have, though I can solve the problem if I were present, I am trying to give them the ideas the X10 group may have to solve such problems,

I as an Electronic Design Engineer I did RFI and EMI, and lighting protection, as well, Nuclear  effects protection .
To those that want assistance and have a problem, I many question to define the problem well, then I act based on the required path, and this one the logical one was to ask the X10 Forum, they do not speak English well so I translate their Spanish to English,. I am Spanish Native.

As well, I am trying find what  was used specially if it is a commercial product to avoid reinventing the wheel.

I do this freely and do not charge for the assistance I give.

Is this clear enough for you and all ?.

Nando
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Tuicemen

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2011, 09:23:40 PM »

I do assist other people troughout the world with the problems they have, though I can solve the problem if I were present...
Each situation is different as you have discovered.
There isn't one single majic fix all solution.

There aren't many users here that have X10 systems setup in an Off grid situation.
And even fewer that aren't in North America.

I can only state this for North American Inverters
"If the inverter is a Pure sine wave inverter it shouldn't cause X10 issues while running at normal generation."
Pushing a inverter to its limit (maxium power output) will result in some unusual effects.
Power from North American power companies is carefully regulated to be a perfect sine wave, because that is what naturally comes out of a generator, and also because sine waves radiate the least amount of radio power.
North American X10 modules are designed to work in a pure sine wave enviroment.
 >!

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nando1937

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2011, 10:05:42 PM »

Yes , and even with some DC/AC inverter USAS, Xantrex they have problems well analyzed and indicating that the noise comes from the inverter.
European products as well,

It seems that the problem is augmented When the inverter is loaded somewhat close to its peak power indicating that the inverter output filtering may be borderline allowing the inverter internal PWM frequency to be present at the output at levels high enough to be the problematic noise.

The solution in this case should be a filter T type formed by two inductor in series, and capacitor the junction to both caps and the other capacitor  lead to ground  ( Neutral ) --  set for around 468 Hz or a bit higher to present at least 48 dBs, in reality around 42 dBs.

May be enough to clean the output of the inverters.

I have been trying to determine the internal circuitry of the available power line filters that are available for the X10 products to see what type of attenuation curve the filters may have, I do not longer have electronic equipment to take measurements since I am now retired.

Nando


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JeffVolp

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2011, 12:00:33 AM »


All the higher current X10 filters are essentially 120KHz notch filters.  The ones I am familiar with have a T-network with the arms being parallel-resonant 120KHz traps, and the body just a capacitor high-frequency shunt to neutral.

Jeff
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nando1937

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Re: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INVERTERS CAUSING NOISE TO THE X10
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 02:10:44 AM »

JEFF:

Thanks for your reply. -:)

Indeed , your  T topology concurs with the calculations I made after sending my previous message, though due to the PWM pulses an additional cleaning may be required since some  GOOD units do allow up to about 3 Volts PWM frequency to pass through and the Notch filter may be NOT enough, I see the need of an additional Inductor in the  Inverter side to reduce those pulses that may distort the zero crossing area.
 :)%
Nando
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