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Author Topic: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP  (Read 25848 times)

Brian H

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2011, 06:00:38 PM »

Is there a diagram on the front cover of the breaker box?
Sometimes it shows what positions are on each of the two line wires.

Even if all the devices are on the same phase and different circuits. You still can have noise or signal absorbers {suckers} that can make things not work or be intermittent.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 06:29:24 PM by Brian H »
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dave w

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2011, 06:09:37 PM »

pvignola

I'm not sure I understand your numbering. Are those the numbers stamped on the panel faceplate? ( the breakers protrude through the face plate).

Maybe this will help. You have identified the first two breaker slots as your dryer. So you understand this "double wide" or "double thick" 220V breaker takes up two slots. Now count *slots* downward from the top left slot. All even slots are "A' phase and all odd slots are "B" phase.

Depending on the manufacter the breaker directly to the right *may* be the same phase as the breaker on the left (maintaining the same plane).  My old Cutler Hammer panel is like this. Most GE panels that I have seen are like this. Federal panels may not maintain same phase on same plane.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 06:19:05 PM by dave w »
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pvignola

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2011, 06:42:10 PM »

On my panel the main switch is on the bottom so I started count from there.  The number are my own system based on what is on the left side of the panel for breakers.  I'm sorry guys it's been a long day and my migraine medication makes me a bit loopy.  I just used my number as an illustration of the left side of the panel assuming the breakers on the same side alternate phases as you go up the panel (or down I suppose).

The numbering on the panel is

The right side bottom is labeled 1
The left side bottom is labeled 2 and they follow that pattern

So if that is the case does it mean that the breaker on the left side number 2 is on the same or opposite phase as number 1?  I assumed that the breakers on the left side labeled 2 and 4 were on different phases (the are physically on top of each other).

So the numbering I used was just starting at the left bottom and enumerating by one for each slot on the left side.  So I can revise that to be

2 + 4 Dryer
16 Foyer
18 Family Room
20 Loft
22 Bed 2+3
24 Master


 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 06:44:31 PM by pvignola »
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Noam

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2011, 08:15:58 PM »

OOPS sorry Noam, didn't see you.
At just over 6 feet tall, I don't hear THAT all too often. ;-)
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Noam

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2011, 08:45:26 PM »

This CAN still be noise issues.

Imagine, for a moment, that your CM15A is your friend, standing at one end of a long hallway, singing for everyone standing along the hallway.
The farther you go down the hall, the harder it is to hear him.

If someone takes a stereo and plays it really loud halfway down the hall, then the people beyond the stereo won't be able to hear the singing, while those close to the singer will. Those between the singer and the stereo, but closer to the stereo, might also not be able to hear.
The stereo creates noise that drowns out the singing.

Now, imagine if instead of a stereo, someone takes a mattress, and uses it to block the hallway. 
Everyone between the singer and the mattress should be able to hear, but those beyond the mattress will have a much harder time.
The mattress absorbs some of the sound.

You might have both things going on at the same time.
The best way to test for this, is to turn off one circuit at a time, and see if one circuit seems to have either a "stereo" or a "mattress" on it.
If you don't find any single circuit, then do the opposite - turn them ALL off (except the ones you have the controller and devices on), and then turn them back on one at a time to see when the problem comes back.

Once you find a suspect circuit (or circuits), then turn off all lights, unplug every device on that circuit, and test. Start plugging things back in until you find the offending device. You'll probably need to filter that.

That's one way to tackle the noise / signal suckers.

Bridging the two phases might help, too. In the example above, there is another hallway connecting at a right-angle to the first one. The singer is now all the way at the other end of the second hallway, making his singing very hard to hear at the end of the first hallway.
A bridge/coupler/repeater is the equivalent of giving him a microphone, and putting a speaker at the intersection of the two hallways, where he was standing before. That might be enough to get the singing past the stereo and the mattress.

Now, a booster like the XTB-IIR (See Jeff Volp's page here: http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_overview.htm) does something a little different.
It moves the singer back to the middle where the two hallways meet. However, it gives the singer a loud bullhorn. The singer's voice is now loud enough to be heard over most stereos, and can get through most mattresses. Putting it in the center helps, too, since there is less distance for the voice to travel now.
(I hope my examples make sense - I ran it by my wife first ;)).
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dave w

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2011, 09:14:43 PM »

The right side bottom is labeled 1
The left side bottom is labeled 2 and they follow that pattern
I assumed that the breakers on the left side labeled 2 and 4 were on different phases (the are physically on top of each other)
 
Yes, now that I understand, your breakers are numbered like my panel. All odd numbers are one phase, all even numbers are the other phase. But again since your dryer did not make any improvement I (like Noam) lean towards it being a noise issue. And a repeater will solve a phase coupling problems and will likely improve a noise problem. In the case of a XTBIIR repeater it will be a dramatic improvement.
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Noam

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2011, 10:00:44 PM »

... All odd numbers are one phase, all even numbers are the other phase...
Not sure if this is correct. Based on my understanding, the breakers are numbered like this:

1    2
3    4
5    6
7    8
9    10
11   12

In this case, 1&2 are on one phase, and 3&4 are on the other phase.
My breaker box is set up like this, too.
If, however, you number the breakers like this:

1    7
2    8
3    9
4    10
5    11
6    12

THEN, the even breakers are on one phase, and the odd ones on the other.
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dave w

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2011, 01:00:55 PM »

Yes you are right. My statement of Odd breakers being one phase and even breakers being the other is incorrect for pvignola's description.

pvignola needs to look at vertical pairs to determine which phase each breaker is on.

Thanks.
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Noam

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2011, 01:20:04 PM »

pvignola needs to look at vertical pairs to determine which phase each breaker is on.

You meant horizontal pairs (the two breakers next two each other in each row), right? ;-)
For most types of breaker boxes mounted vertically (as is most common), there are two breakers (or slots where breakers could be installed) in each horizontal row, and those rows alternate between the two phases.

If the breaker box is mounted sideways (which I've seen in some cases - I think code allows that in some places), then the breakers are installed two in each column, and the columns alternate between the phases. At least this is how evry breaker box I've ever seen operates.

My old breaker box worked this way, but with a twist. There was no "main" breaker to shut off  the whole house (the panel was installed in 1963).
Instead, there were two sets of bus bars. The upper set fed all of the 220V double-pole breakers. The wires coming in from the street connected directly to the tops of the upper set of bus bars.
One of these double breakers was wired as the "main" breaker for the rest of the (single) circuits in the house. The wires from that pair of breakers fed down to the lower set of bus bars. You could shut off all of the single breakers by just flipping that one breaker off. However, the rest of the double-pole breakers would still be on.
When we went from 100-amp to 200-amp service a few years ago, part of the process was replacing the breaker box, and all the wiring out to the roofline, where the power company's wires connected in. The new preaker box has a HUGE "main" breaker at the top. Power comes into that from the street, and then feeds out of it to the bus bars.
I like that setup a lot better, because I can shut off everything if I'm working in the breaker box, instead of leaving half the box energized.
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dave w

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2011, 01:56:21 PM »

You meant horizontal pairs (the two breakers next two each other in each row), right? ;-)
No, but describing horizontal rows as the same phase would work also..

I meant vertical (up and down) pairs will straddle both phases, starting with the dryer breaker. Following that pattern  pvignola should be able to determine which phase each of his single breakers are on.

Right now I think pvignola's best action would be to just get a repeater, especially if he plans on expanding his system to as much as 50 modules. A repeater would couple both phases and if he does have a noise problem even the $20 XPCR might help.

I have never seen a panel with the numbering starting with the bottom breakers(?). Learn something every day here.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 01:58:43 PM by dave w »
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Noam

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2011, 02:08:52 PM »

I have never seen a panel with the numbering starting with the bottom breakers(?). Learn something every day here.

Unless the panel was installed upside-down?
How'd you like my explanation of noise, signal suckers, the phase bridge, and the booster?
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dave w

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2011, 05:57:52 PM »

Unless the panel was installed upside-down?
How'd you like my explanation of noise, signal suckers, the phase bridge, and the booster?
Yes, except I would have thought pvignola would have mentioned that since the panel numbers would be stamped/printed on the face plate upside down. Could be the explaination however.  ???

Yeah the explaination had  great analogies that even the most "technically challanged" can mentally picture. save that as a cut and paste and use again.

Reminds of some of the great "Uncle Phil" anaologies. Too bad ACT is no longer pushing X10 or A10 products, Phil doesn't teach or write about X10 protocol anymore.
 
 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 06:00:44 PM by dave w »
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pvignola

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2011, 09:39:20 AM »

My panel may well be installed upside down :-)

Noam that was a great explanation!  Very well crafted and painted a vivid picture in my mind.

You guys have been so great thank you all.  I am going to do some more troubleshooting this weekend time permitting.

I will let you know what I find out.
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pvignola

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2011, 11:31:49 AM »

Ok guys thanks to all of your help I have figured it out.  I looked at the most likely cause of my issues.  I have 3 older power bars that are connected upstairs.  I disconnected them one at a time and discovered that they are the source of my problems.  When I unplugged one of them from the loft both of the lights now worked from both the remote and AHP.  I had one light in the bedroom that was not responding to AHP commands and I unplugged the power bar I had plugged into the bedroom outlet and viola that lamp worked too.  So now I can control all of the lights in my home via remote and AHP.

On a separate note I did the CM15A 9.5 inch wide mod and it improved the range quite a bit.  I now have most of my 1800+ sq/ft home covered with the CM15A.  There is one dead zone in the bedroom furthest away from the CM15A.  I plan to use my TM751 plugged in upstairs to combat that issue.

So are the old power bars sucking signal or producing noise (or maybe both)?  I can buy filters if I still want to use those power bars if it's a noise issue right?

I can't thank you guys enough for all of your help you don't have any idea how happy I am that I have these issues resolved!

 
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Brian H

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Re: Lamp Modules (LM465) not turning on or off via AHP
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2011, 01:19:08 PM »

The old power bars could be making noise but more likely sucking the signals.
A filter rated at the proper amperage would be a help.

TM751 is not polite and technically can step on other power line signals. If the CM15A and TM751 don't transmit together. It maybe OK.
The RR501 is polite and can also be controlled by power line signals. Many online dealers have them fairly reasonable in price.
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