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Author Topic: LED lighting  (Read 13121 times)

Brian H

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2011, 04:01:22 PM »

If you have been using the Appliance Modules for ten years. We know they are not the new CFL friendly ones.
Most likely the LED lights are making some noise as they turn off and triggering the Appliance Modules Local Control Circuit.
As a test. Try adding a small 4 watt incandescent night light bulb on the modules controlled output along with the LED lights. Maybe with one of those power taps. If it then behaves. It is the Local Control Sensor re-triggering it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 04:13:47 PM by Brian H »
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brwolfe

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2011, 04:48:55 PM »

Thanks Brian H, I did read some where else in here about putting extra load on the x10 output like that, but I didn't find that as being a viable solution, but I put a 7w night night on it and it works fine now.
So I don't want to use this as a solution, what if the bulb burns out or somthing, can I make a permanent solution with resitors or capacitors or modify these modules to work properly?

Thanks

Brian W.
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Brian H

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2011, 06:15:35 PM »

If they are the older ones with Local Control Sensing. There are some modifications for them but if it is the relay on or off sensor. Defeating it causes a machine gun ratchet sound.

You may find it easier to try a 39k {39,000 OHM} 1/2 watt resistor across the output. Again you could try mounting one in a plug for a test.
39K gives you a safety margin on the 1/2 watt resistor as it dissipates .37 watts.
Can go lower if we go to a 1 watt resistor, but many find the 39K fine.
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brwolfe

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 09:29:13 PM »

Thanks a bunch, I will give that a try.

Brian
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Brian H

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2011, 06:00:50 AM »

You may also want to look at the Modifying Local Control Section of this web site. If you have older appliance modules.
I have done the cut the diode and jumper in a few myself.
http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm
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brwolfe

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2011, 12:12:30 AM »

Wow, good info, I used the 39k resister tied to the output, that worked.
So now I will open a module up and follow that diode mod to disable current sensing, I think that is a better fix if it works.

Thanks a bunch again.

Brian
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mcf3782

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2011, 07:25:31 PM »

If they are the older ones with Local Control Sensing. There are some modifications for them but if it is the relay on or off sensor. Defeating it causes a machine gun ratchet sound.

You may find it easier to try a 39k {39,000 OHM} 1/2 watt resistor across the output. Again you could try mounting one in a plug for a test.
39K gives you a safety margin on the 1/2 watt resistor as it dissipates .37 watts.
Can go lower if we go to a 1 watt resistor, but many find the 39K fine.

  Has anyone tried this with a wall switch? 

  I have an X10 wall switch (WS467 I think). It's been controlling the lights on my bedroom ceiling fan for years.  I'd like to switch from incandescent lamps to LED lamps in the fan. 

  Ikea has some GU10 base LED lamps for $10/each.  I have some standard Edison (E27) base to GU10 base converters.
If I leave an incandescent lamp in one of the 4 sockets, the switch works fine. If I put LED lamps in all 4 sockets, they just blink/flash; but never come on fully or go off fully.

  I have the ceiling fan disassembled at the moment to paint it, so the light kit part is easy to experiment with.  If I wire a standard 2-prong plug onto the light kit, put the same Ikea LED lamps, in the same Edison to GU10 converters and plug this assembly into an X10 2-prong Lamp Module, they turn on and off from a remote keypad just fine.

  I don't have a neutral wire available in the box in the wall where this switch lives, so I can't easily implement the "add a neutral to support CFL' mod; which would probably work just as well for LED lamps as CFL lamps.

  Anyone have any suggestions for modifications I can try with my existing switch (I have a couple available to test with), so I can make these lamps work without having to buy a new/different X10 switch?

 
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dave w

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2011, 08:20:00 PM »

The WS 467 has to draw operating power through the bulb filament. I believe the electronics in the WS467 idles at a couple of watts, so the 39K ohm resistor across the light circuit would not deliver nearly enough current to the switch electronics.  

How about a 7 or 10 watt "golf ball" http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/5747/IN-0007S11WH.html  bulb in one of the light sockets. I have success with WS467s and CFL bulbs when I use one of these in the circuit.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 08:21:43 PM by dave w »
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mcf3782

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2011, 08:39:09 PM »

I can now absolutely confirm what dave w said. The 39K resistor doesn't work.  After I posted my question, I dug around in my spare parts box and found a 33K and a 47K 1/2 watt resistor. Neither of them worked. :(

I could certainly put one of the 'golf ball' lamps in one of the sockets.  That would make the color temperature and light pattern in the room uneven.  Not ideal, but may be my only option.

Thanks for the reply, dave w!

If anyone  has any other suggestions; by all means please chime in.  I'm game for trying other approaches.
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dave w

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2011, 09:33:12 PM »

If anyone  has any other suggestions; by all means please chime in.  I'm game for trying other approaches.
Well you could always try something down in the 2K-5K ohm range until you find the right value that will keep the switch electronics active. The trouble is that resistor will be across full line voltage when you turn the lights on. So depending on value may be dissipating 5 to 10 watts. besides being a wire wound or a ceramic power resistor, it will need good ventilation. But I never liked putting "low" ohms across "high" volts, things turn brown and smoke over time.

You might consider a wire in  module up in the shroud (XPFM).
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Brian H

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2011, 06:43:09 AM »

There where modifications floating around. To add a Neutral Power Wire to the wall switches. So it didn't steal power through the load.
Though with X10 updating many of the modules to more current parts. The designs are completely different from the designs the modifications worked with.  ???
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mcf3782

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2011, 01:31:48 PM »

My switches are all at least 8 years old, so they should be close to the design of the ones used for the mods.
I may look a little harder at how difficult it would be to get a neutral into the box where this switch lives. But that will have to wait until a day when it's not 98F here in Atlanta; since to do that I have to go crawl around in the attic.
*melts*

It may be time to start thinking about moving to Insteon.  I use misterhouse as my control program; and it's support for Insteon is getting more and more solid.  I hear rumors that it plays better with LEDs than X10 does.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.  For now, I'm just going to live with having one of the four lamps in the ceiling fan fixture being an incandescent. That makes the switch happy.
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Brian H

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Re: LED lighting
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2011, 01:56:08 PM »

Insteon will also require a neutral in the switch box.

Though with Insteon. There is a two wire conversion kit.
Basically it is a SwitchLinc Relay and an InlineLinc Relay. Linked to each other.
You rewire the switch loop to Line and Neutral to power the SwitchLinc and cap its load wire.
Then you use the in fixture InlineLinc Relay to control the lights.

I guess you could use an X10 wall power controller also with the switch loop rewired to LIne and Load and an XPFM in the lights.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 02:10:39 PM by Brian H »
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