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Author Topic: Future of X10  (Read 170468 times)

JeffVolp

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Future of X10
« on: August 12, 2011, 12:36:32 AM »


I read an article linked on the HomeSeer board that makes me wonder about the future availability of X10 equipment:

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_end_of_x10/

Is this just an unsubstantiated rumor being spread by someone who hates X10?

Jeff
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Brian H

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 06:18:30 AM »

Does make you wounder.
There are almost no Retail Vendors carrying X10 anymore, if any.

Notice in the comments section of the article.
One comment was. Your previous encounter with X10 has nothing to do with this does it?

Most users here know it is not Plug and Play or 30 minute setup.
But with some work. You can get allot of bang for your buck with X10.
I have also seen some unique uses for X10 from very inventive users.

The Automation Systems Hacked article also scares me. We know X10 protocol was never made to be secured.
With any microcontroller it would not take too long to cycle through all 16 House Codes and 16 Unit Codes. To see what responded.
http://www.cepro.com/article/home_automation_systems_easily_hacked_via_power_lines/K309
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 06:51:09 AM by Brian H »
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JeffVolp

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 08:43:31 AM »


I did read that comment, which made me wonder if there was substance behind the article.

Most of us know that X10 can be hacked by anyone with a Maxi Controller by just plugging it into an exterior outlet and going through the codes.

X10 has included a feature to keep track of modules in use since the original Active Home, which can monitor commands in homes sharing the same utility transformer.  I believe the intent was to avoid house and unit codes that are in use elsewhere, but it certainly provides the ability to monitor an adjacent home too.

I don't think hacking is the issue.  I think the economy is having pressure on people purchasing things they don't need, and the colapse of the housing industry has reduced the demand for their products.  They may also be having the same cost pressures as I am seeing, and the fact that their sales are at bargain basement prices leaves little margin to work with.

Jeff
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B.A.

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 09:18:20 AM »

I have noticed that most of the recent "sales events" ::) focus mainly on cameras
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dhouston

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 09:25:37 AM »

I wouldn't put much faith in that unless I see an announcement from X-10. X-10 certainly has room to raise prices since all of the competition is premium priced. And, all of the competing systems are fairly easy to hack which should surprise only clueless editors and others equally naive.
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dave w

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 11:00:51 AM »

This does not provide a rosey outlook either.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=24439.0;topicseen
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Noam

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 11:22:17 AM »

I have noticed that most of the recent "sales events" ::) focus mainly on cameras
They just introduced the new 900 MHz cameras, I bet they are trying to get rid of the old ones, at least with some of those deals.
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dave w

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2011, 04:43:19 PM »


I read an article linked on the HomeSeer board that makes me wonder about the future availability of X10 equipment:

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_end_of_x10/

Is this just an unsubstantiated rumor being spread by someone who hates X10?

Jeff
FWIW
X10 is having some issues but what Jacobson is saying is not entirely accurate. Perhaps CE Pro will have some clarification soon.
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HA Dave

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2011, 08:34:37 PM »

I likely have enough X10 devices to last a lifetime (since I am already old, anyway). But just in case.... I think I will buy some extra while I can. The idea of no more X10... makes me feel ill.

In the event... that someday soon this Site fails to load... it was very nice reading your [all of you] posts and learning from your input.
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Brian H

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 08:55:10 AM »

 -:) Start a rumor they are closing.
Everybody panics and buys extra stuff.
Slumping sales go up.  ;D
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JeffVolp

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2011, 11:22:13 AM »

-:) Start a rumor they are closing.
Everybody panics and buys extra stuff.
Slumping sales go up.  ;D

I just checked inventory at the big distributors on eBay, and a lot of stuff is already gone.

Maybe it is just a ploy.  If not, it may be tough to get XPPF filters in another couple of months.

Jeff
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dhouston

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2011, 11:41:18 AM »

I decided to read the original wired.com article on hacking X-10 and Z-Wave and, as I expected, found the hackers as clueless as the editors who promulgated their nonsense. ::)

In the home automation environment, encryption (whether properly or improperly applied) serves only one purpose - to market premium priced systems to the gullible. Even if encrypted, if the same signal always results in the same action, all one needs do (if they want to gaslight the neighbors) is record the signals and play them back at random. And, as any X-10 user who has experienced the endless dim phenomenon knows, it is easy to jam the power-line. Jamming the RF frequencies (310MHz or 433.92MHz) is also easy to do.

The only thing that might provide a modicum of security would be rolling codes (like those used by garage door remotes) which would add more cost than can be justified. Plus, I recently read (and don't recall where) about two university researchers who had found a way to break the KeeLoq rolling code system, sold by Microchip and widely used in the automotive industry, which only required being in close proximity to the keyfob for about 30 minutes.

The X-10 hackers could make far more profitable use of their time by hacking KeeLoq and stealing the neighbor's BMW. -:)
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Brian H

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2011, 07:05:59 AM »

Well I hope X10 clarifies things soon, but I am not holding my breath on it. Blue isn't my shade.  :'

I see on the top of the sales page today. The first item is not an X10 device but a Westinghouse Four Channel Intercom System.

I did a little EBay searching myself Jeff.
Not looking good on some of the vendors sites.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 09:16:32 AM by Brian H »
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dave w

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2011, 09:16:35 AM »

Well in my very humble and completely diplomatic opinion,  Dave Kennedy and the other "DefCon" hackers are blithering idiots. It's like they "discovered" something that nooobody else knew.

"X10 has no encryption so has no security" (paraphrased).

Wow, WHO KNEW??

Since 1978 X10 has always said multiple house codes were part of the protocol to prevent your "pole transformer" neighbor from controlling your lights.

One of the bright bulbs from DefCon/BlackHat needs to explain to me how that imparts any implication of being secure.

Put these brains in a Model "T" and they will probably write a blog to inform everyone the cars are unsafe because they don't have seatbelts and anti lock brakes.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 09:35:45 AM by dave w »
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pseeker

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Re: Future of X10
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2011, 10:37:07 AM »

> Dave Kennedy and the other "DefCon" hackers...
I think the point is to raise awareness.  Like any other technology, only handful of dedicated users understand the weakness until it is publicized... Example: My retired father always calls me when he sees a popup screen on his browser that says he has virus infection and he should download this program to remove it.  Or that medical devices like pacemakers can be "hacked" etc  etc etc.
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