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Author Topic: Door lock  (Read 29640 times)

mickoes

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Door lock
« on: August 14, 2011, 01:22:48 AM »

Hello,

Just sharing my thought here, it would be great to be able to unlock/lock your door with the push of a button.  Not everybody care that it could be reverse engineered, nor packed with extreme security.

Probably that this suggestion has already been shared in the past. But it's ok :)

Thanks
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dhouston

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2011, 08:01:39 AM »

Infrared operated door locks provide both good security and convenience.
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HA Dave

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2011, 12:52:16 PM »

I've also thought about the RFID operated locks (http://www.smarthome.com/51518/Samsung-EZON-SHS-3120XMK-Digital-Deadbolt-Door-Lock-with-RFID-Card/p.aspxas) as well. I know they aren't "push button" like the OP requested. But for women that carry a purse it could be a real effort saver... just carrying the purse would allow entry. The RFID works with men too... only finding keys in pockets somehow seems easier. Some new cars now have the same type of RFID "keys" that also... by just having the RFID device with you allows you to push the start button and drive away.

Also.... now with the cell phone software and even traditional old electric locks... so many things can be operated via a smartphone.
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dhouston

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2011, 03:53:58 PM »

I've also thought about the RFID operated locks
RFID (or any RF device without rolling codes) is easily hacked, even from great distance.

Biometric locks are are another secure choice but they cost a lot more than IR.
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mickoes

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2011, 10:28:07 PM »

I've also thought about the RFID operated locks
RFID (or any RF device without rolling codes) is easily hacked, even from great distance.

Biometric locks are are another secure choice but they cost a lot more than IR.

I don't know about your region, but most thieves around here don't know how to properly operate a computer. Besides, unless you have your windows protected against robbery any kind of lock security is useless.  I wouldn't see myself locking a precious safe with X10 hardware anyway.

Sure other alternatives are there, but it would be great if it was operated by the X10 system :)
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HA Dave

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2011, 10:54:28 PM »

I don't know about your region, but most thieves around here don't know how to properly operate a computer.

Thieves everywhere are dumb, lazy, and generally drunk or high while committing crimes. The average break in is just slipping in a door that someone forgot to close or lock, followed by just kicking open a door. About three years ago (at Christmas time) someone in my area entered a house through a hole in the wall that they cut with a chainsaw.

If you keep items of real value in your home.... once a burglar finds out... they will take them. No home is that hard to break into.

The burglar that concerns me the most is the neighborhood kid that has developed a drug problem. If I allowed my home to be an easy target I wouldn't feel like I was being a decent neighbor. Kids often have a period in their lives when they do stupid things.
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luke03

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 04:51:25 PM »

I've also thought about the RFID operated locks
RFID (or any RF device without rolling codes) is easily hacked, even from great distance.

Biometric locks are are another secure choice but they cost a lot more than IR.

I don't know about your region, but most thieves around here don't know how to properly operate a computer. Besides, unless you have your windows protected against robbery any kind of lock security is useless.  I wouldn't see myself locking a precious safe with X10 hardware anyway.

Sure other alternatives are there, but it would be great if it was operated by the X10 system :)

Do you know any detailed report about RFID hacking? I am using RFID myself, so I would like to find out more.
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HA Dave

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 09:37:01 PM »

Do you know any detailed report about RFID hacking? I am using RFID myself, so I would like to find out more.

I think most people have only seen some "news" reports like this. With a mere mention that a... larger antenna... would allow long range hacking.

Cars and houses are NOT places to store valuable items. Locks, only help keep honest people honest.
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dhouston

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 10:52:23 PM »

Do you know any detailed report about RFID hacking? I am using RFID myself, so I would like to find out more.

You will likely need to search but there was an article from 3-4 years ago detailing the reading the RFID entry cards to a secured law enforcement facility in LA. As I recall, it was done (during a hacking conference) from a couple blocks away looking down on the entrance from a highrise office building using a Pringles cantenna. Sorry, I don't have a link - I lost a network HDD with most of my notes on things like this a couple of years ago. You might find where I posted about it to Usenet's comp.home.automation group.

This should get you started...

As for those disdainful of the intelligence of the typical burglar, you don't know what you are talking about (or are selling useless alarm systems and don't care to know). A local (Cincinnati) TV news department did some interviews with incarcerated burglars a few years back and I've seen other supporting reports and documentation (including federal government stats).

Most are pros in that they make their living burglarizing houses. They see periods of incarceration as "a cost of doing business". They study the technology and pass info around amongst others in their "profession". Most break-ins occur mid-day when they know (from observation) that the house is empty. The best deterrent is a big, mean, protective dog inside the house, not in the yard.

They are usually in and gone in a few minutes, long before police can respond to any alarms.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 11:18:54 PM by dhouston »
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HA Dave

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 09:21:14 AM »

...... there was an article from 3-4 years ago detailing the reading the RFID entry cards to a secured law enforcement facility in LA. As I recall, it was done (during a hacking conference) from a couple blocks away looking down on the entrance from a highrise office building using a Pringles cantenna.........

Certainly.... your not saying these criminals actually even claimed to enter the secured facility? Is it they merely claimed to be able to capture the code? Great a claim from a known, or at least admitted criminals. Where has such a break in ever occurred? Why would I believe these hackers?

.... As for those disdainful of the intelligence of the typical burglar, you don't know what you are talking about (or are selling useless alarm systems and don't care to know).

I am not selling anything! My Dad was a career police officer for more than 25 years... and never once (not even one time)... saw a break in due to a picked lock or any other TV-like professional action or technology.

Homes are so easy to enter... it would be insulting to criminals to imply they are so stupid they would invest time, effort, and money to learn to hack the rare RFID entry lock. I worked for the federal government... and they and many of the corporations they deal with do trust RFID... and have for a few years. So far... no incidents have been reported.

Do you really believe that someone... ANYone... is out there attempting to hack residential RFID locks?

dhouston... please don't take any offence. Your knowledge and accomplishments are well known and respected... as are you. Everything is hackable. But a video made by some MIT students and a Boston reporter.... isn't an actual threat to me or my family. Crappy doors and windows are. Addicts in need of money are. Kids with too much free time are. But tech savvy geeks and nerds.... not so much.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 09:42:17 AM by HA Dave »
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beelocks

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 11:43:26 AM »

RFID is fairly secure but needs the correct electro-mechanical physical locking mechanism to keep the door closed. The RFID portion is just a fancy switch. You could always put a simple momentary pushbutton into the circuit if that's what you want to do.

If you want to bypass RFID just go for the mechanical key bypass mechanism that is installed on almost every system. It's likely to be a standard (not high security) system, as the client is putting all their faith in the security aspect of what is, essentially, a locking system of convenience.
If you're not comfortable picking the key mechanism you could just throw a brick through a window.

RFID scanners are available for fairly short money. Pry-bars are less expensive. Rocks are easier to come by and don't come with the warning to use safety glasses.

High-tech thieves do exist, but they are mostly saved up for movies, exhibitions and TV 'documentaries' (the kind where they use silhouettes and voice changers). If a thief has gone to the trouble of investing time and knowledge in scanners and hacking, then he/she is not likely to be stupid enough to get caught trying to steal your DVD player. The really good ones rarely get out of the house and spend their time stealing credit card numbers from reasonably insecure websites.

The most common thief today is still the opportunist - quick cash or easy to dispose of. I disagree that most are drug addicts or drunk (muscular co-ordination plays a role in throwing a rock through a window). I do agree that there are career criminals who are fully able to make a living stealing your loose change from your bedside cabinet and your easy to fence TV - $100 a day is fairly good money when you only work at lunchtime and you don't have to pay taxes :)
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dhouston

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 12:23:08 PM »

I said nothing about lock-picking (bump keys take minimal skill) or hacking home security systems or electronic locks but things like reading the obituaries and figuring that a house will likely be unoccupied during a family member's funeral are rather common - it happened next door to me about 12 years ago and the police said it was not unusual.

The statistics are fairly clear. Most residential break-ins (>60%) occur in daytime at unoccupied houses with the burglars gaining entry by forcing a door (or finding one unlocked) or breaking a window and being in the house less than 10 minutes. Alarm companies will even cite the stats, leaving out the last part since it means the burglars are gone before there's a response to any alarm. Get a (housebroken) dog, keep doors/windows locked and keep your insurance up to date. And, if it means a commensurate discount on your insurance premiums, by all means get an alarm system.

OTOH, most business break-ins (>60%) occur at night when the premises are unoccupied.
 

Pointing out that nearly all RF operated devices (except for rolling codes) are easily hacked does not imply that most burglars are skilled hackers. However, why waste your money on expensive locks that won't stop a burglary or trust in locks that are inherently insecure.

And, the fact that burglars are not usually skilled hackers does not imply that they are totally inept. They understand alarm response times, know to observe to learn when a house is unoccupied and have basic skills appropriate to their chosen line of work.
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HA Dave

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 05:02:22 PM »

I can't prove it here. But I know for a fact... your average burglar was that cute kid you bought lemon aid from [at his stand in front of his house].... just a few years ago. You know the person!

He (or SHE) knows your car, when you work, when you bowl or golf. He knows your house and how it is constructed. He can get in... anytime he decides to. Believe it or not... almost always... drugs and/or booze will be used during the crime. When homes were robbed in the small town where I grew-up the local police (not my Dad) would ask the school who skipped that day... then go recover the stolen propriety.

If your a decent neighbor... you owe it to the parents that have kids at home... to provide as much of a deterrent to crime as you can.

We have a somewhat new problem now. With gold prices through the roof and many construction workers with no income. Jewelry boxes and laptops can get a person by.

But just think about it this way. We're all pretty techy here at this forum. If you or I wake up tonight and notice the neighbors house is on fire... how will you react? I will yell for my wife to call 911... then run to the home and kick open the door... and try my best to be as helpful as I can. Maybe... you big brained guys.... will boot-up your laptop or grab your smart phones (is there an app for doors?). Maybe you'll run to your workshop to grab a special tool. But you'll likely not need it.

It's true... kicking open a door...won't work at my house. There actually might be a couple other homes on my street properly locked and fortified as well. But we don't do it cause we think someone might steal our stuff. We have insurance, and we don't store valuables. We secure our homes to protect the kids and to be good neighbors.

Sure we have alarms. Alarms do just exactly what the name implies. They alarm (or alert) us to the robbery in progress. That is handy as it will prevent us from walking in on someone stealing our stuff. They may have stole stuff from someone else last night... and part of that stuff may have been a loaded handgun.

If you want use a IR or RFID lock... and it helps you keep your door locked by removing some of the hassle. GREAT. They haven't let anyone down yet. And a locked door, alarm yard signs, and some security cameras.... helps the neighbors with problem kids. They'll be happier people at the block party... when the kids aren't in reform school.
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dhouston

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 07:22:28 PM »

I can't prove it here. But I know for a fact...

Then you should let the FBI benefit from your expertise... >!
The clearance rate will skyrocket.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 07:27:15 PM by dhouston »
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HA Dave

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Re: Door lock
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 07:51:20 PM »

Then you should let the FBI benefit from your expertise... >!
Thanks! Actually the government benefited from my expertise for many years. I am retired now. I understand stats very well, and I am confident in what I am posting too. I know people enjoy the mental game of thinking security is protection against some Robert Wagner type... instead of a pimple faced kid with glazed red eyes and pants around his knees. But facts are stubborn.

Are you reading this part... of your link:
Clearances and Juveniles
The UCR Program has established reporting guidelines that are unique to clearances involving juvenile offenders. First, law enforcement agencies may clear an offense by arrest even though no physical arrest may have occurred, e.g., when a juvenile is turned over to juvenile authorities. Second, when clearing a crime that involves both juvenile and adult offenders, law enforcement reports the clearance as an adult clearance.

In the little town at the time when I grew up.... drop out rates were tiny.... 2 or 4 percent. That was never the normal nationwide... but far from any helpful information today. Far too many kids don't show-up to schools in Americas cities today... but then you know that.

Are you just trying to be disagreeable... or do you actually have helpful information about someone... somewhere... that hacked a RFID secured ANYTHING and actually stole something (not just said they could have)? Certainly.... if this is the real threat you think it is.... there should be many, many, many crimes you could point to where a crook hacked a RFID secured entry card.

Unfortunately (for really bright people) security at home is pretty simple stuff. Good solid doors and windows with working locks that are used. Closing the garage door when mowing or playing in the yard (out of view of the garage). Using lights at night, and practicing habits of random activity. Playing a radio at times, having a neighbor watch your home. Normal... boring crap. Not fun... code stealing high-tech smart guy banits... just real life.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 08:23:04 PM by HA Dave »
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