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Author Topic: X10 & Compact Fluorescent  (Read 20059 times)

dhouston

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Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2011, 08:10:29 AM »

From the NYT article cited above...
Quote
...some years ago, Philips formed a coalition with environmental groups including the Natural Resources Defense Council to push for higher standards. “We felt that we needed to make a call, and show that the best-known lighting technology, the incandescent light bulb, is at the end of its lifetime,” says Harry Verhaar, the company’s head of strategic sustainability initiatives. Philips told its environmental allies it was well positioned to capitalize on the transition to new technologies and wanted to get ahead of an efficiency movement that was gaining momentum abroad and in states like California. Other manufacturers were more wary, but they also understood the downside to selling a ubiquitous commodity: the profit margin on a bulb that sells for a quarter is negligible. After much negotiation, the industry and environmental groups agreed to endorse tightening efficiency by 25 to 30 percent.
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dhouston

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Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2011, 09:17:40 AM »

Here are a few more links to articles (shedding light on this heated issue) supporting what I had to say above...

David Cunningham - first link is mostly about him, second about his (and others) work on incandescents

Sandia National Laboratories

I did not mention GE because they have since shelved their HEI (High Efficiency Incandescent) in favor of LEDs
I believe GE was the last company to actually manufacture incandescents in the USA, having plants in Louisville, KY and in Virginia where the HEI could have been manufactured using the same tried and true manufacturing methods. I believe both plants are now closed. GE, of course, was started by Thomas Edison in 1890.

One last point...
VU1's first product targets one of the weak points for both CFLs and LEDs, recessed or canned lights. Their bulb does not generate the heat that the others do (power supply issues) so should last longer but there's little cost saving.  
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 09:29:16 AM by dhouston »
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HA Dave

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Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2011, 12:40:49 PM »

Don't believe EVERYTHING you read.

Actually... I think there is still a couple small southern plants making incandescents... which sell mostly in Mexico. I don't follow this closely... there isn't much need. These (unknown, small name) plants... like potato chip or pretzel factories often make several "brands" which of course is merely packaging. With almost all such commodities... packaging, shipping, and distribution makes up most of the cost... and profit. PLUS... you may not pay $4 for a Dave Brand light bulb.... but slap a name brand on the same bulb with a nice package and the price is more flexible. We all know this!

The idea that the manufacture is in cahoots with oil company's and other such hoaxes are just sad. Most of us ether work for corporations NOW... or have at some time. To imply that we are somehow dishonest, conspiring, or otherwise have disregard for our fellow man is insulting and wrong. I think conspiracy theories, hoaxes, and support or opposition for various flavors of government are fine. But such beliefs are better expressed in blogs... not a HA forum.

BTW... GE was started NOT by Edison... but by investors that saw Edison going bankrupt. Edison remained extremely bitter about the take over till very late in his life when he finally visited GE headquarters (which I believe was a paid promotional visit). Edison was a brillint man with a fine creative mind. But his understanding of business was deplorable.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 12:48:34 PM by HA Dave »
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Brian H

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Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2011, 12:58:25 PM »

The Sylvania Super Saver bulbs that are compliant with the 2012 rules. I recently bought. Have a Made In The USA marker on the box.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 01:01:07 PM by Brian H »
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dhouston

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Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2011, 01:29:57 PM »

BTW... GE was started NOT by Edison... but by investors that saw Edison going bankrupt.
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dhouston

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Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2011, 01:45:05 PM »

CFLs also have a lousy power factor. Most are around .5  ::)
Agreed, but some are better than others. It's a shame they didn't require a minimum PF in their laws. I forgot to make the PF point because, for most of us, the waste caused by low power factor, doesn't mean a great deal since we don't pay for it directly in our monthly bill. The utility companies do, however, need heavier infrastructure to handle the higher currents. 
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HA Dave

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Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2011, 04:35:29 PM »

    http://www.ge.com/company/history/edison.html[/li][/list]

    Yes... if you take the time to actually read. GE even paid Edison to appear at Corp Hq... in his later years. It benefits GE to have a friendly image. Plus... his investors saved his butt by establishing GE... a huge favor to him... as well as protecting many jobs and their own investments. No one stuck a gun to his head... so sure you could say he chose to establish GE... as opposed to having all his accesses seized.

    I have found it better to read history from history books... as opposed to go to a corporations Web Page. You can't just makeup your own version of history... to support silly conspiracy theories and hoaxes.

    The American people who work at American corporations are generally speaking honest and hard working. To imply that they are somehow dishonest, conspiring, corrupt, or otherwise have a disregard for their fellow man is insulting and wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    Your intentions here are transparent. Why don't you just blame CFL's on George Bush and the military industrial complex... this is stupid!
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    msauto

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    Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
    « Reply #37 on: September 14, 2011, 05:11:22 PM »

    Not sure if this is relevant but I'm gonna put it out there
    I know that x10's lamp modules say no floeresents but I never have been one to except everything someone says(Sometimes I really mess things up) :'
    Any way I am currently setting up x10 automation in a 40 x 80 commercial shop
    I have installed a male plug on 5 dual florescent shop lights one plug on main lead feeding 3 with 2 60 watt bulbs per and 1 plug on other 2 with 60 watt bulbs so as not to go over the 500 mark
    anyway i installed lamp modules on each and so far they work flawlessly.
    I am on a rural electric provider in Oklahoma(not sure i can legally say there name)
    Not sure if this is relevant.
    I no it's not supposed to work but it is and very cheap I mite add. >! -:)
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    dave w

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    Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
    « Reply #38 on: September 14, 2011, 05:31:31 PM »

    Not sure if this is relevant but I'm gonna put it out there
    I know that x10's lamp modules say no floeresents but I never have been one to except everything someone says(Sometimes I really mess things up) :'
    Any way I am currently setting up x10 automation in a 40 x 80 commercial shop
    I have installed a male plug on 5 dual florescent shop lights one plug on main lead feeding 3 with 2 60 watt bulbs per and 1 plug on other 2 with 60 watt bulbs so as not to go over the 500 mark
    anyway i installed lamp modules on each and so far they work flawlessly.
    I am on a rural electric provider in Oklahoma(not sure i can legally say there name)
    Not sure if this is relevant.
    I no it's not supposed to work but it is and very cheap I mite add. >! -:)
    FWIW
    Better to use an Appliance Module.
    It is a bad idea to use Lamp Modules on Fluorescent fixtures. My guess is; they must have solid state ballasts which *can be* tolerant of the distortion a triac dimmer imposes on the  AC sine wave. My $0.02 is: Try one fixture with out a LM and one with, check the fixtures after an hour. If both fixtures are about the same temperature around the ballast area, you are probably OK as long as no one accidentally DIMs the modules. Neither solid state, nor magnetic ballasts will like that. It isn't that "it won't work" it is that triac dimmers always adds a bit of distortion on the AC line, and the "distortion" dramatically increases as the light is dimmed. Incandescent lights don't give a rip about the distortion, just about everything else does.
    « Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 05:39:45 PM by dave w »
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    Brian H

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    Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
    « Reply #39 on: September 14, 2011, 06:00:46 PM »

    When they go bang or smoking. Don't say we didn't warn you.
    You also can't just add the wattages and say it is less then 500 watts. You are driving most likely an electronic ballast.
    Also the new soft start lamp modules will slowly apply and remove the AC as they ramp on and off. Another good way to make magic smoke or go bang.

    Just because it seems to work. Does not mean it is safe.
    « Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 06:07:10 PM by Brian H »
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    HA Dave

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    Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
    « Reply #40 on: September 14, 2011, 06:02:00 PM »

    The Sylvania Super Saver bulbs that are compliant with the 2012 rules. I recently bought. Have a Made In The USA marker on the box.

    Great! So be honest... do YOU really think those bulbs were made in an United States of America factory? Or are you going to claim not to understand the value added import rules?

    You know full well as do most other adults that those bulbs were made in China and imported to America in bulk. Tranported to Mexico along with the American made bubble package to be packaged and transported back to America, again in bulk. Then repacked into marketable cases in America and sent to distribution points (warehouses). The value added import rules allow for that to be called "Made In The USA".

    It isn't just CFL's that skirt those import rules to carry the "Made In The USA" label. But pretending is for kids.

    Look... I am NOT trying to give anyone a hard time. And I have no desire to go into how the State Department has become a multigeneration repository of civil servants. Negotiating deals and influencing laws that benefits careers more than national interests. Nor will I rant on about why IP addresses aren't recorded on low dollar Internet political contributions.  

    But CFL's, low-volume flush toilets, allowing you teen daughter to be felt-up at airports.... all (and more) are liberal government intrusion into our life's.
    « Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 06:22:35 PM by HA Dave »
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    Brian H

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    Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
    « Reply #41 on: September 14, 2011, 06:04:00 PM »

    I have no idea if they skirted around some loop hole.
    Seems to be the norm these days.
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    HA Dave

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    Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
    « Reply #42 on: September 14, 2011, 06:30:43 PM »

    I have no idea if they skirted around some loop hole.

    Two different investors wanted to build faculty's in South Carolina to make CFL's. Both had received State approval. The EPA rejected the required permits even after construction plans were well under way. There is a long list of products that the EPA doesn't allow to be made on America's soil. Every year that list grows longer... and longer. CFL's are on that list.

    In Ohio... where I live... I know of two GE plants that make "light bulbs". Nether factory makes what would be called anything like a household light. Both plants make speciality lights.
    « Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 06:35:55 PM by HA Dave »
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    dave w

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    Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
    « Reply #43 on: September 14, 2011, 08:12:30 PM »


    Great! So be honest... do YOU really think those bulbs were made in an United States of America factory? Or are you going to claim not to understand the value added import rules?


    But CFL's, low-volume flush toilets, allowing you teen daughter to be felt-up at airports.... all (and more) are liberal government intrusion into our life's.
    FWIW
    Unless things have changed "Made in USA" must be (mostly) made in USA, versus "Assembled in USA" which is so broad that packing Chinese bulbs in American printed boxes would probably qualify.

    BTW Dave, you will be relieved to know that Big Sis has promised to grope small children less.....I'm pretty sure she was referring to the TSA.
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    HA Dave

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    Re: X10 & Compact Fluorescent
    « Reply #44 on: September 14, 2011, 10:07:37 PM »

    ..."Made in USA" must be (mostly) made in USA, versus "Assembled in USA" which is so broad that packing Chinese bulbs in American printed boxes would probably qualify.

    Now it is only "value added". Packaging can be 80% of value. (How much would you pay for a dozen eggs... you have to carry home in your hands?). So merely using illegal labor to put shipped bins of almost any goods into marketable 12 or 24 pack cases on US soil... could be considered as Made in America. Particularly if the one point of the process was completed (as in the bubble packaging in Mexico) in a NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) country.

    Don't get me wrong... I use CFL's and have since 1998. I am NOT against CFL's. I am against advocating hoaxes. I think some people see the spread of hoaxes as fun or cute... like a practical joke. Maybe I am just too serious. Maybe those folks that once earned their living making light bulbs... see real humor in rumors that they now make more money making CFL's. Maybe they Laugh Out Loud as their homes are foreclosed on. Maybe it's just me that doesn't see the humor.

    Lighting makes up a small part of most homes electrical use (on average about 12%). So even if you cut the usage in half using CFL's or LEDs (which I have).... the saving is more intellectual... than economical.

    I know a mature lady who disposed of her remote phones because of a recent hoax that tells people those little wall-warts that powered them use power 24/7 and can add up to hundreds of dollar a year. She put at risk her very safety because of a stupid hoax. Of course... there is a tiny element of truth as such devices do use tiny amounts of electric all the time. But the cost is Penny's... if that.

    There isn't a big difference between stealing your car.... or stealing from you your knowledge... or the truth. Truth and knowledge have value as much as does tangible property.
    « Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 10:26:41 PM by HA Dave »
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