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[06M6TorridGTO]

I know this is long and I apologize. I just want to make sure it is all clear. If you don't wanna read it you dont have to but reading it will help you understand where the antennas are placed for RF communication. You can skip down a few paragraphs to the * if you don't wanna read about it haha

I couldn't find anything posted around here pertaining to the range of the MS16A when dealing with the CM19A and its interaction with AHP. I have seen plenty that dealt with the CM15A, however I did not get into the X10 system until a couple months ago when the CM15A was not available. I just recently (yesterday) understood that the TM751 does not store memory for timers and macros. I have been trying to figure out why the motion sensor could turn on the SR227/PAO11 (with a low voltage light set plugged into it) when they were both set to the same code. I have the MS16A on A9 and when I set the receptacle on A9 (with the TM751 just 10-15 feet away basically through a window), it would work just fine and turn the receptacle on. But I was trying to use a macro with trigger A9 ON to turn on A14 (when I set the receptacle to A14). Long story short, I couldn't figure out why it worked directly ont he same code but not with a macro, as if the macros were not loaded onto the TM751. Then I finally discovered last night that this is because the TM751 doesnt have memory to store those timers and macros!! All this time, I was under the impression that the CM19A and the TM751 combined as a pair were basically the same as the old CM15A but with wireless communication to the PC. But after searching last night on here, I couldn't believe how much bashing there was toward the fact that X10 has marketed the CM19A/TM751 combo as a replacement for the CM15A when in fact it is not. Anyway, trying to find a CM15A doesn't seem to be the easiest thing. So I'll be working on that and trying to find one.

I do have a PC (an HTPC that I just built) and I do plan on keeping it on. Main reason for starting the entire X10 system was just to control my garage from the Internet (my phone) in case I forget to close it when leaving. So I discovered MyGarage. That got me started on the whole Home Automation and X10 system which I have been enjoying tinkering with, but not without the massive frustration it has brought lol Anyway, I plan on leaving the PC on for that reason. The garage system seems to be working okay. Just gotta mess with the switch a little and make it a better contact as thats the only issue I'm having right now. My biggest concern right now comes from a motion sensor. I want it to turn on my front porch light when someone walks up. The tm751 is close enough and if I have the light set to the same code as the motion sensor, it should turn on. I haven't gotten the WS467 to control it yet so thats why I used the low voltage lights to test it. Seems to work fine that way. However, I cant get the MS16A to communicate with the computer. Yes, it is far away from devices in the back of the house but let me explain my system. I did this initially since I was having issues with the DS10A used in the garage for the switch indicating if the garage was closed or open. I found an article somewhere (a search will probably turn it up and I think I found it through the forum) for modifying the CM19A to add an F-Jack and then attach whatever antenna I want to it. So I did that and created my "X10 RF network". I have three antennas in this set up. All are plugged into a f-jack on a wall plate. One is in the bonus room on the originally cable jack behind a tv and is directly above the garage. I would estimate it is about 20 feet from the DS10A, through the floor/ceiling between the garage and bonus room (the antenna is in the center of the wall only a foot from the floor and the DS10 is toward the bottom of the garage door on one side). Next to the bonus room is my bedroom. Basically there is a small storage area between them and the antenna in my bedroom is on a wall plate on that wall and it behind a dresser. I have 4 items on that wall plate (its a 6-port keystone wall plate) and they include the antenna, the cable coming in from the Dish Network setup, an ethernet jack running to the router in the entertainment room, and a stereo audio cable also going to the entertainment room. None of that was probably necessary to know hahaha

The third antenna is on another keystone wall plate that has 5 items on it - a dish network cable, the other end of that audio cable, two f-jack used for RF communication input which i'll explain, and one f-jack that the antenna attaches to. The system basically gives the CM19A the ability to be in three locations at one time (at each of the antennas). Each antenna has a coax cable leading from it to the entertainment room (which is where the computer is). The bedroom antenna is also used as an antenna for my Dish Network remote control (since it is the home distribution setup and only one box, the second TV control has the RF remote to the main box in the entertainment room). weird setup but it works. I was having trouble with the remote reaching the box so that prompted the install of the antenna (which is just the antenna that would normally be on the back of them box) but now the antenna is in my bedroom with coax cable between it and the box. Works great!! I decided to use it for the X10 network also btu to get it to two different devices (satellite box and CM19A), i used a standard splitter. One side of that splitter goes to the wall plate and then to the satellite box (that was one of the f-jacks on the wall plate that I said I would explain. The other side of that splitter joins the "X10 RF Network". So I have a cable from the each of the three antennas (and then also added another dipole antenna bought from radio shack that is just behind the wall (I have access to behind the wall) where all these cables come together and is used just for a decent signal from the back yard/deck in case the antenna on the nearby wall plate isnt good enough. So actually there are four antennas that all join up there. I used a 4 port splitter/combiner so they would attach to one cable. That cable goes to the wall plate and then plugs into the F-Jack that I put on the CM19A. By the way, all of the antennas (with the exception of the dipole antenna) is the same antenna that comes with a dish network box for use with the RF remote.

* So that's my network. I know that was alot to explain but maybe it will help others (provided it actually is helping lol but I couldn't see why it wouldn't). Only thing I don't know about is how well it helped the signal but with a ~4500 sq ft house, I doubt the CM19A's little wire for an antenna would have done much on it's own. And after doing it, the garage DS10A is now connected with the computer since the RF range went from a couple hundred feet away to about 20 feet away! It all started with realizing that my laptop (which I was using at the time before I built the HTPC) could see the DS10A in the bonus room above the garage but not in the entertainment room in the back of the house (this is all upstairs by the way). So I developed the wired network to shorten any wireless RF ranges.

Now that I described that, my issue lies solely with the MS16A. Like I said, I do not have a CM15A and the TM751 is working fine where it is to control everything in the house. I did use a different TM751 with house code G in my bedroom since it was only that one room, no others, that wouldnt work with the rest of the stuff in the house on code A. Probably a phase issue but this was easier to do and like I said, its the only one that doesnt behave well with the rest of the house. Anyway, the MS16A is maybe only 15-20 feet from my bedroom window. The nearest antenna (from the CM19A) is my bedroom as the motion sensor is downstairs and right out front of bedroom window. The antenna is behind a dresser but only about 5 feet from the window. The antennas all communicate just fine with the TM751. Since I do not have a CM15A, I cannot use macros and timers without the computer so the MS16A has to communicate with the PC through that antenna. Is it just me or should the MS16A be able to go 20-25 feet to an antenna? Maybe it can but it is a weak signal and all the splitting and coupling of the coax cables and wall plates is dropping it down before it gets to the CM19A??? I basically need some way to enhance the signal of the MS16A. I tried the passive repeater with an 18.25" straightened wire hanger but it didn't help. Is there a way to add an external wire to the MS16A? Maybe like a TM751 antenna or an F-Jack with and antenna plugged into it? Is it better to just try to find a CM15A or get a CM11A? I would really like to have the PC connected to all devices throughout the home though. Any help with all of this would be absolutely amazing. I have been refraining from posting on here until I basically ran out of options myself. I though the passive repeater would help but its not.

Sorry for making this so long guys. I tend to get that way some times when explaining things lol but it does help to paint the correct picture. I should try printing a basic floorplan! haha

[Brian H]

I have printed your message so I can study it at length.

The TM751 would not be where macros and timers would be stored. The CM19A replacement for the CM15A would be where they where stored if it had that ability. It does not.

Also as the RF transmitter to the TM751s for power line signals. I am not too sure how your three splitter coupled antennas are effecting the transmitter signals. Does the splitter/combiner have 310MHz in it band pass frequency specifications?

The MS16As RF signal has to reach the CM19A as power line signals sent by the TM751 are not received by a CM19A which has no power line receiver or transmitter.

[06M6TorridGTO]

Yeah, that's how I understand everything. I don't know about the splitter/combiner. I would have to do behind the wall to look at it (if it would say anything on it). I do know that the CM19A transmits RF to the TM751 and then that send the PLC commands. My problem lies in getting the MS16A to reach the CM19A but with three antennas already placed in various spots, one of them just ~25 feet away from the MS16A, you would think it would be fine. The DS10A is about the same distance through a floor/ceiling and is fine (at least I think so). I have issues with it when I look at it on the phone's webpage but I think its just the contact switch that I rigged up that isn't placed well. When I close the switch on my own with my hand, it works every time.

Going back to the MS16A, that only has a window (and I guess a dresser) in between it and the CM19A's antenna. I cant really get an antenna for the CM19A any closer to the MS16A without I guess running a length of coax wire down the side of the house to the area where the MS16A is. I have a couple antennas left and thought about doing that. Put one antenna near the window (just outside it) so that its only like 5 feet from the antenna attached to the wall plate. Then have like 10-12 feet of coax cable running down the side of the house to the mulch below, with another antenna maybe 5-8 feet from the MS16A. Maybe that would help since the wireless signals would drop down to around 10 feet with 10+/- feet in the wiring. I just don't wanna mess with that until I try other option because I shouldn't have to. I shouldn't have to do all this modifying. What's the point of wireless communication if it can't be more than 5 feet away. So I figured I would try to get the MS16A to communicate further before I brought the CM19A's antenna closer.

I'm gonna post up a couple pics later today of the location of the antenna and where the MS16A is in relation to my bedroom. Maybe that will help. I was about to attach pictures of the antennas but I can't seem to figure out how to do that on here lol maybe I'll just upload them to my school website shortly.

[Dan Lawrence]

You did not read what Brian posted: "The CM19A which has no power line receiver or transmitter."  You need to either get a CM15A from somebody who has an extra one or replace the TM751 with a RR501 which is more robust unit.

[06M6TorridGTO]

Yeah I know that. It doesnt plug into to the wall so that would be impossible to achieve lol the CM19A only sends and receives RF signals. The TM751 receives RF and can send PLC. Not sure about the RR501 cause I haven't looked it up. Heard about it but haven't looked into it. I don't think I mentioned that the CM19A could transmit or receive PLC but correct me if I'm wrong. The only thing I have running through wires is the RF signals traveling through antennas and coax cables, and of course the PLC commands being sent from the TM751 lol

[Dan Lawrence]

Again you failed to accept the fact that ""The CM19A which has no power line receiver or transmitter".

[06M6TorridGTO]

I am so confused. I never once said the CM19A could send or receive PLC. In other words, it has no powerline receiver or transmitter. I know that. I never said it did. I'm confused where you thought that I did

[Brian H]

I was the one that pointed out the no power line transmitter or receiver. So it could not receive a power line signal from any of your TM751s and had to have an RF signal directly from the motion sensors.
Mostly for you information.

Don't be confused. You didn't say or indicate you thought a CM19A had a X10 power line transmitter or receiver in it.

[06M6TorridGTO]

oh okay. Yeah I know the MS16A can get its signal to the TM751 just fine since it turns on a device on the same code every time it is triggered. But the MS16A's RF signals are not reaching the CM19A's antenna which is what I would like. Ultimately, I would like to have a central device to control it all, whether it is the computer or something like a CM15A. Hence the reason I added the antennas. Now if the signal is weakened through all that cable and splitters for the antennas then that could be part of the issue but I know it is definitely better than the short little wire that was sticking out of the CM19A lol

Here are some of the pics of the stuff I have.

All images are located here:  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4e0laeajr8qqjxw/5A2Xo8f4gq

Image 1:  This is the antenna that is being used for the CM19A. As stated, there are three of them. One in my bedroom, one in the bonus room above the garage, and one in the entertainment room near the the computer. They are standard Dish Network RF Remote Antennas.

Image 2:  This is the dipole antenna that I bought from RadioShack. Part Number 42-2385. I couple it with a matching transformer (part number 15-1253 i believe) and hooked it to the splitter/combiner along with the three wires each heading to the Dish Network antennas.

Image 3:  This is the ActiveEye Motion Sensor (MS16A) with the coat hanger that I bent to stick it in the ground. I just did that for that reason alone, nothing to do with RF strength. It literally just now crossed my mind that this may be messing with the RF signal. Let me know if that may be the case. I could try it later with it just laying on the ground and see if it works. Then I could use something non-metallic. hmm 

Image 4:  Back of the MS16A with the coat hanger "stakes" attached.

Image 5:  Corner of my bedroom showing how far away the Dish Network Antenna is from the bedroom window. It is right behind that dresser (probably 6-8 inches from the side of the dresser).

Image 6:  View from the bedroom window down to the mulch area below. The MS16A is circled.

Image 7:  This is the placement of the MS16A facing the sidewalk. A person would walk past it on the sidewalk, triggering the sensor. It does work fine this way. Took a while to get it in the right spot to work consistently but now it does. It just can't reach the Dish Network Antenna in my bedroom.

Image 8:  This shows the distance from the MS16A to my bedroom. Image 5 showed how far away the antenna was from the window and now this shows how far away the window is from the MS16A. Also, below the bedroom window is the dining room. Just inside the window (on the side with the front door) is where the TM751 is placed. It is in a spot where all X10 devices can be controlled (except my bedroom which is why there is a separate TM751 on house code G for that room only. I can't figure it out but it works like this lol) I know that it is receiving RF signals from the motion sensor just fine and any RF devices not too far away. I do have trouble in some areas but its usually far away ones and they may be in range of the CM19A antennas so it can communicate that way. The TM751 in the dining room is getting a perfect signal from the CM19 antenna (probably the one in my bedroom). I can use the computer to control all devices just fine and the timers setup in AHP are working no problem. I just want to extend the RF range of the MS16A.

Let me know if I have anything wrong. Also, I definitely want to see if maybe the coat hanger used to make stakes for the MS16A is affecting the signal. There may be no way to tell without trying it. Also, right now, I do have an 18.25" straightened coat hanger (same kind as the one used for stakes) taped on the back of the MS16A (with it equally centered on the motion sensor). You can see it on Image 7.

Thanks again for the help guys!! I'd still be back at square one if it weren't for this forum! lol

[Brian H]

#1 About how long is the whip antenna?
#3-#4 The metal loop could be effecting the RF transmitter.
#7 Hard to see Is the MS16A parallel to the ground or facing the sidewalk so you cross its beam when you pass it?
The MS16A sends RF through the front and rear covers. If it is laying on the ground. You would be sending the RF into the ground and straight up to the sky.

[06M6TorridGTO]

Hmm interesting. Never knew the direction that the MS16A send its signals. It is angled up a little. I bent the stakes so they would go straight down but the MS16A is maybe at a 45 degree angle with the ground. It's not directly laying on the ground pointing up. It points up slightly so as to get more of a body than just legs. I'm going to experiment with it a little bit shortly. I'll try using something other than a metal hanger for the stakes. As for the Dish Network antennas, they are 6 to 6.5" inches long (depending on if you count the black part near the elbow).

On another note, I just ordered a CM15A. I found an entire kit of various items (mostly new in box stuff) along with a CM15A. Paid $200 for all of it though but I figure I can sell most of the new stuff for close to that or more. Probably will be here mid week. If I were to do the same mod to the CM15A that I did to the CM19A, it would be about the same except that the CM15A would send and receive PLC, right? So I could just the TM751 to get the signal from the MS16A to the CM15A.

One question I had, can the CM15A receive the timer and macro downloads through RF, or only through USB? And to control the CM15A (like using AHP to turn devices on), does it send that only through RF or also through USB?

[Brian H]

The timers and macros that are stored in the CM15As memory are downloaded into it by the USB port.
They can be triggered by a RF signal from things like an MS16A or a power line signal from a controller or the TM751A.
Timers and Macros could also be done from a computer running 24/7 and then the CM15A gets it instructions through the USB port.
Since the CM15A has a RF Receiver and Transmitter in it. If close enough the MS16A could be received directly by it. It will also act like a Tranceiver and send the RF commands back on the power lines if the House Code is set to be transceived.

The CM15A has two internal antennas. One goes to the receiver board the other goes to the transmitter board. You would want to use the F Connector on the receiver board. Search here there are a few threads on using an F connector on a CM15A. One is this one.

http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=633rtag6sb5t374fecr99aqql6&topic=19669.0

[06M6TorridGTO]

Yeah I've seen a few things about extending the range either by replacing the antenna with a TM751 antenna or extending the factory one or even modifying it with an F-Jack (like what I did on the CM19A). And yeah I would probably just the TM751 where it is to transmit to the CM15A for macro use. I will probably keep the PC in place, possibly with the existing CM19A or connecting that network to the CM15A instead with an F-jack; more than likely the latter since it will do the same as the CM19A plus a lot more lol I should have that stuff by Wednesday or so. The CM15A is going to solve probably most, if not all, of the issues with communication around the entire house. My next step is to make the CM15A completely wireless, even from the computer, while maintaining the ability to download timers and macros since i'm constantly changing things around in AHP. I've been looking at wireless USB stuff to plug right to the CM15A and then it can be connected wirelessly to the PC. Another thought is to make it able to connect to the Internet for plug in use, specifically MyGarage and maybe ActivePhone Pro (even though it seem ActivePhone Pro just sucks bad and I'm thinking about getting a refund). I just don't know if that will work yet, even if I added ethernet capabilities cause I think AHP has to be running. I'll be looking into that later but for now, the computer can stay on.

[dhouston]

Do NOT use an F-connector. The input impedance of the receiver in the CM15A is 50 ohms so use a 50-ohm BNC connector and 50-ohm coax. It will also help to use an antenna with 50-ohm impedance like this one.

• http://davehouston.org/eggbeater.pdf

The biggest problem is that the CM15A receiver is superheterodyne with rather narrow bandwidth while most X-10 transmitters are LC controlled and are seldom anywhere near the 310MHz they are designed for and for which the superhet receiver is tuned. Using 75-ohm connectors/coax will just add to this fundamental problem and give a less than optimal solution.

A few people have found much better results by replacing the receiver with the RM1SG (see EBay) superregenerative receiver which has a rather wide bandwidth, enabling it to hear the off frequency transmitters.

[06M6TorridGTO]

I'm gonna have to read that a few more times and do some research before I understand that hahaha so regular coax (i'm assuming that is 75 ohm) is not right for this equipment? What about other receivers? Is it just the way X10 receiver boards were tuned and set up? I'll have to look into it some more. I'm definitely not trying to tear apart the CM15A and start replacing boards lol so we'll see. I may just leave it all hooked up the way it is and then use the CM19A to send RF signals to the CM15A. I dont know. I'll have to experiment with it. Seems to be the pattern with X10 stuff haha but thankfully I learn quickly! lol