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Author Topic: New fuse box, 3 phase system with FD10 doesn't work  (Read 3960 times)

BartB

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New fuse box, 3 phase system with FD10 doesn't work
« on: September 09, 2012, 06:09:11 PM »

Hello All,

First of all I'm pretty new to this forum so if I do something wrong please let me know.

Let me start by explaining my situation. Some time ago I started on a new kitchen, which also required the fuse box to be altered. I wanted to do something with X-10 so it was a good opportunity do do some things differently. I have a 3 phase connection to my house.

I have 7 groups each of them behind a combined earth leak & overload module. Groups are:

 (A) kitchen, induction plate
 (B) kitchen, dish washer
 (C) kitchen, cooler freezer & oven/microwave
 (D) washing machine.

All of the above groups are not interesting for me to do anything with X-10

Then I have:
 (E) Lighting & sockets Living room, storage, partial 2nd floor
 (F) Lighting & sockets kitchen, entrance
 (G) Lighting & sockets 2nd floor, attic

These groups are the ones which I would like to enable X-10 usage.

I have bought 3x marmitek FD10 modules and they where configured for filtering and linking. I places the filters in front of (E) (F) and (G) for filtering and linking (exactly as described by marmitek in the manual). The problem is, this doesn't work!

THE PROBLEM:
As a test I have a TM13G and LM12G module, together with a suitable remote. When I connect:

TM13G to (E) and LM12G (E) : Works
TM13G to (F) and LM12G (F) : Works
TM13G to (G) and LM12G (G) : Works

Not very exciting: but then:

Sending on (E) receiving on (F) : Works
Sending on (F) receiving on (G) : Works
Sending on (G) receiving on (E) : Works

Everything else doesn't!! I can basically jump from Phase (X%3) to ((X+1)%3), but that's it. As a test I shut down and decoupled all devices (PC's, TV and stuff) and still the same outcome.

I'm now very puzzled as to how this is possible. I have tought about the following:
 - Noise (no devices except light bulbs?)
 - Wrong wires ( I checked this with the electrician a couple of times?)
 - ???

Can somebody help me with this problem? What am I doing wrong?



I have tought about using a FKX40 active repeater coupler but that causes another problem for me. The overload protection that I use has a built-in earth leakage system. And the FKX40 is coupled to the 3 phases and N, according to the manual it should be connected after the fuses, but then I'm pretty sure that will cause the earth leakage system to trigger. Does anybody have any knowledge about this?

I have an education in electrical engineering (Technical computer science) so I know some stuff about filters and stuff
Regards,

Bart
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 06:12:58 PM by BartB »
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dhouston

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Re: New fuse box, 3 phase system with FD10 doesn't work
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 08:09:18 PM »

First, we seldom have 3 phase power in the USA so we may not be very helpful. However...

Does the TM13G send to all three powerline phases? You might test this by moving it to the other phases.
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BartB

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Re: New fuse box, 3 phase system with FD10 doesn't work
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 01:18:28 PM »

...
Does the TM13G send to all three powerline phases? You might test this by moving it to the other phases.
I did move it around. basically:

sending on (E), receiving on (E) and (F), not on (G)
sending on (F), receiving on (F) and (G), not on (E)
sending on (G), receiving on (G) and (E) ,not on (F)

As far as I can think of the following could be true:
1) There is too much loss of signal when the signal has to jump 2 phases up. Basically you have 2 high-pass filters (capacitor I guess?) the signal has to pass
2) The sending of receiving module is not able to receive a signal with a phase rotation of 2 phases (doesn't seem very likely to me.)
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dhouston

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Re: New fuse box, 3 phase system with FD10 doesn't work
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 01:47:28 PM »

Are you saying that E, F, & G are on separate phases?

If so, then you may be right about it having trouble with two FD10s. A solution would be a second TM13G - one on E and one on F but this will not help with signals sent by other transmitters. The signal from the TM13G is only 2.5Vpp and it may be weaker than that by the time it reaches the FD10s.
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BartB

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Re: New fuse box, 3 phase system with FD10 doesn't work
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 02:06:53 PM »

Are you saying that E, F, & G are on separate phases?

If so, then you may be right about it having trouble with two FD10s. A solution would be a second TM13G - one on E and one on F but this will not help with signals sent by other transmitters. The signal from the TM13G is only 2.5Vpp and it may be weaker than that by the time it reaches the FD10s.

- E, F & G are on seperate phases.
- Before the circuit breakers for E, F & G I have 3x FD10 units, one for each phase
- Each FD10 unit act as a low-pass filter for incoming power line (so no commands enter the house trough main connection)
- Each FD10 unit is connected to the next phase as high-pass coupling (as instructed in the manual for the FD10).

See also this picture:



I see your information about the 2.5Vpp... That could indeed be very useful because other units with higher signal levels could just make it over the other phases
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 02:12:57 PM by BartB »
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dhouston

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Re: New fuse box, 3 phase system with FD10 doesn't work
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 03:59:57 PM »

The 2.5Vpp level is from Marmitek's specifications. CE limits for power line carrier are rather low (I thought 5Vpp) so there may not be other units with higher outputs.
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