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Author Topic: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!  (Read 12008 times)

Walt2

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ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« on: September 18, 2014, 03:23:33 PM »

ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!

The "older" RF Smart Repeaters looked like a mini-controller.   This "all new" RF Smart Repeater looks like a large module.

The "older" RF Smart Repeaters were actually two different designs.   Of course, X10 didn't change the part number.   One could tell the difference by the house code used in test mode.   Rev 1 of the design used house code "A".   Rev 2 of the design used house code "M".

This "all new" RF Smart Repeater uses house code "M" too.   Does that mean it is really new (Rev 3)?   Or is it simply a repackaged Rev 2?

The difference between the "older" RF Smart Repeaters is that one rev used a daisy chain configuration if you needed more than one to cover an even larger area, and the other rev used a star configuration.   Honestly, I forget which is which anymore.

Does this "all new" RF Smart Repeater use a daisy chain or a star configuration?

Also, while the "older" RF Smart Repeaters worked with the CM11A and the CM14A, they never seemed to work quite right with the CM15A.    Does this "all new" RF Smart Repeater fix that (thought I really assume the fix would be needed in the CM15A, not in the Smart Repeater)?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 03:27:32 PM by Walt2 »
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Brian H

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 04:24:11 PM »

The new SR751 has just been released.
I am not sure anyone has them to test yet.
I know Tuicemen has reported having two being shipped to him. I would imagine a full test will be done and reported on.
http://tuicemen.com/forum/index.php?topic=774.0

I see the sales page has a manual link on it. I downloaded it to see how it is used.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 04:26:19 PM by Brian H »
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Tuicemen

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 05:14:05 PM »

The manual doesn't give a whole lot of info. B:(
The new repeater was developed from a older unit the new owners discovered in a box of old X10 devices.
I'm not sure which Rev was found but it sounds like Rev 2.
Improvements were made I'm told in the operational range (maybe a stronger receiver and or transmitter)
Once I have my units I'll post my findings.
 >!
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Walt2

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 06:33:47 PM »

I downloaded the manual too, before posting here, and found it pretty brief.   It certainly didn't answer any of my questions, other than the test mode used house code "M" like the old Rev 2 units.

It been a long, long, time since I actually played with these, and that was with testing with M.C..

If you look at any of the Smart Repeaters, they get set an unique ID of A, B, C, or D.   These aren't house codes.  When it repeats an RF signal, it appends its ID to it.

The daisy chain ones will repeat any RF signal, even one from another Repeater.   When it repeats an RF signal from another Repeater, it replaces the ID with its own.   Basically, an RF signal can get passed from the originating Remote, to a Repeater, to another Repeater, etc, until it finally gets passed onto the Receiver.

The star configuration ones will repeat only a "virgin" RF signal from a remote.  It ignores any RF signal from another Repeater.   In this configuration, the Receiver is suppose to be in the center, and the Repeaters spread around it.   Possibly, given there is a max of four Repeaters, one can be placed 50+ feet north of the Receiver, one south, one east, and one west.

The CM14A and the various X10 Transceivers seem to be able to correctly handle these RF signals with the Repeater ID appended into them (I think by ignoring duplicates-by-repeat).   The CM15A doesn't seem to do as well.  That's why I am wondering if such was fixed, though it sounds like "no".
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dhouston

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 06:14:44 AM »

This goes back several years so my memory is rather faint and any documentation I have is probably on a long retired Windows 3.1 PC's HDD but I recall that both Dan Lanciani and Edward Cheung documented and discussed the repeated RF codes both on their websites and on Usenet's comp.home.automation newsgroup. Archive searches might turn up something. Here's a sample...

That said, they never worked well, merely adding unnecessary complication to the fundamental problem without any hope of actually solving it. The fact that this is the first new hardware released by the new X-10 is a clear sign that the more things change, the more they stay the same.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 06:31:09 AM by dhouston »
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Walt2

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 08:22:23 AM »

This goes back several years so my memory is rather faint and any documentation I have is probably on a long retired Windows 3.1 PC's HDD but I recall that both Dan Lanciani and Edward Cheung documented and discussed the repeated RF codes both on their websites and on Usenet's comp.home.automation newsgroup. Archive searches might turn up something. Here's a sample...

Interesting find.   :)%

At the time they seem to be grasping that X10 made two different versions, but it was not as simple as SR731 vs. PSX01.    The first hardware version, what I call Rev 1, was the daisy chain style that would indeed repeat Repeaters.   The second hardware version, what I call Rev 2, was the star config style that would not repeat Repeaters.   That's why the people on that old thread were reporting different behavior.   While X10 made both versions as SR731, I don't know if the X10 Pro line PSX01 was ever made as the earlier Rev 1.
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timlight10

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2014, 11:12:46 AM »

Could you use this device as a crude way to get X10 signals across phases? I have an apartment and cannot modify the wiring to include a phase coupler. I have good coverage on one phase with my transceiver but lose it in another room on a different phase.
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dhouston

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2014, 11:18:30 AM »

Just plug another transceiver into the other phase.
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Walt2

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2014, 11:33:18 AM »

Could you use this device as a crude way to get X10 signals across phases? I have an apartment and cannot modify the wiring to include a phase coupler. I have good coverage on one phase with my transceiver but lose it in another room on a different phase.

The RF Repeaters, well, repeat RF signals, not the PLC signals on the wiring.

Adding a second Transceiver is a pretty interesting solution.   Another is if you might try to get one of the SmartHome SingaLinc Boosters, #4827, and plug it into the other, weeker, phase, as close to fuse/circuitbreaker box as you can.   As long as at least some of the X10 PLC signal is getting across from one phase to the other, it will boost the PLC signal to useable levels.
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* Tecmar Device Master, CP290 (LightHouse), CM11A (AH), CM14A (AH2), CM15A (AHPro).

Brian H

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2014, 01:35:35 PM »

Interesting thought about the Boosterlinc.
I would imagine Jeff's XTBR would be a similar device.
http://jvde.us//xtb/XTBR.pdf
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Tuicemen

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2014, 01:32:05 PM »

My repeaters arrived yesterday and first impressions are very good.
Over the next few days I plan to do a bit more testing but for now you can read a small review here
 >!
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toasterking

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2014, 02:58:25 PM »

Wouldn't it be great if X10 RF could someday be as robust as Z-Wave and actually have its transmissions dynamically routed to specific repeaters/transceivers and confirmed?  I expect that could never happen unless the X10 RF protocol was redesigned or, maybe, if the repeaters were dual-band -- one protocol/frequency for the routing and another for the transmitting/receiving endpoints.  And it'd be nice to start seeing some 2-way communication and collision detection on the endpoints.  But, really, where's the motivation to engineer and retrofit any of that this late in the game?  Some of X10's beauty is in its simplicity.  Just thinking through my fingers here.
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HA Dave

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2014, 11:29:21 PM »

Wouldn't it be great if X10 RF could someday......... actually have its transmissions dynamically routed to specific repeaters/transceivers and confirmed?.........  Some of X10's beauty is in its simplicity.  Just thinking through my fingers here.

Countless X10 users have enjoyed completely reliable entire systems using the old-school technologies.... simplicity. Including myself. But I am confident that other technologies like WiFi will be integrated into users setups when and where needed. 
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Tuicemen

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2014, 05:12:16 PM »

The CM14A and the various X10 Transceivers seem to be able to correctly handle these RF signals with the Repeater ID appended into them (I think by ignoring duplicates-by-repeat).   The CM15A doesn't seem to do as well.  That's why I am wondering if such was fixed, though it sounds like "no".
I did a bit more testing with a CM15 basic on/off commands are fine.
The problem comes with dim/brighten, a 5% dim or brighten becomes 10%.
 I would think this is a software issue with AHP but will test more with the SDK I suspect third party software may handle the repeated commands OK if the SDK reports the Repeater ID
The AHP activity monitor doesn't display the ID ::) :'
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Tuicemen

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Re: ALL NEW SR751 RF SMART REPEATER!
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2014, 08:41:40 AM »

I tested with the AHP SDK and a CM15A.
The repeater doesn't send a ID that the CM15 can seen using the SDK.
This is with a old Cm15 not sure a newer version or the cm19,cm17,cm14 or cm11 would display this info with the SDK either.
I'll test with a cm19 and cm17 when I find them ( not sure just where I've placed these)  ::) :'
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