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Author Topic: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall  (Read 5308 times)

PCorsaro

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X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« on: April 15, 2015, 02:37:59 PM »

Trying to help owner with his currently working x10 system.
Cash register system has SmartHome PowerLine 1132B connected to Com port.
and
Have Powerhouse Transceiver TM751
 Both Transmitters controlled 8 pool table with 4 lamps per.
All worked fine with Incandescent 72W each = 288W foe each table.
Each table has AM466 Appliance Module and one table has a LM465 Lamp module.

I installed on one table 4 (100W Eq) GE LED 17Weach = 68W.
All worked great including x10

We purchased 8 tables X 4 LEDs each or 32 LED lamps.

Plugged them in and x10 works for short times than sticks ON or OFF


Went on line to see that some people have fixed problem by adding small incandescent to the output of each module (used 7W).
That did not fix it

Also tried removing diode on each module to disable current sensing
That did not work

Tried both night light and diode removed modules
That did not work

Tried replacing 1 of 4 lamps with an incandescent lamps using diode removed modules (with and without night light)
That did not work


Two things like to accomplish:
1) Have computer be able to turn ON and OFF the tables without spending thousands of dollars in software modes.

2) Be able to turn tables ON and OFF using remote

I am out of ideas, has anyone had success getting x10 to work with LEDs.

Paul

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Brian H

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2015, 06:26:21 PM »

There are members here that have LED bulbs working fine. Some models work fine others give problems.

What is the model of the GE LED bulbs?

Are the GE LED bulbs dimmable? If not I would try removing all of them on the LM465 and see if anything changes. Even at 100% On. The LM465 does modify the AC output slightly and bulbs not made to be on a dimmer. May do strange things.

Sounds like the LED Bulbs are making power line noise or are signal suckers.
One set worked in your tests before going with LEDs on all the tables. That may have caused the power line signals to be degraded but not enough for all of them to stop working. When the rest where added.

You maybe able to add an X10 filter on the OUTPUT of the modules to the four LEDs on each table, to correct the problem.

Though you have to be careful on your filter choice. LED bulbs have a Repetitive Peak and Inrush Current that can be larger than the 17 watts the GE bulbs are rated for.  Rarely the bulb manufacturer provide that data on the box. I have an eight watt Lighting Science Group  brand LED bulb. That the manufacturer says use eighty watts per bulb when calculating the load on a dimmer.
We have seen reports of the X10Pro XPPF overheating on what should not be an overload. When used with some loads.

The Smarthome 1626-10 10 amp Filterlinc, ACT 15 amp AF120 are better. Jeff's 10 amp XTB-F10 or 15 amp XTB-F15 are very well designed and maybe the best choice..
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 11:16:44 AM by Brian H »
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Brian H

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2015, 06:30:37 PM »

Cutting the diode and small incandescent bulb are for modules going back On after turning them Off or glowing dimly when they should be off.
One incandescent with the rest being LED. Is usually for the bulbs pulsing and acting strange on a dimmer type module.

There are some good troubleshooting tips here:
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm

Good automation information here:
http://www.davehouston.net/
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 06:02:20 AM by Brian H »
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joe s.

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2015, 06:12:37 PM »

It sure sounds like noise has been "added" to the system somehow.  The tip from Brian to change the bulbs on the LM465 makes sense.  If that doesn't fix it, try unplugging one table at a time to see where the gag-point is.  Filters on the power-to-bulb side of each module is the most likely solution, if-in-fact the LED's are creating noise somehow.  You can also move the TM751 to various wall plugs to see if some "new location" helps to overcome the noise (even though the 1132B may have to stay where it is....it might help with troubleshooting).  I am running quite a few dimmable LED's (Feit I think) on dimming modules as well as a few on very old appliance modules; with no issues so far.
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Brian H

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2015, 06:56:29 PM »

With that many sets of lights over tables. Good chance you also have more than one branch circuit feeding them and some maybe on each phase of the incoming power. Do you have any phase couplers or since the 1132B is a Smarthome device. Any BoosterLincs in the mix?

Testing with different sets on and off may yield some information. As will trying the TM751 in different locations.
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JeffVolp

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2015, 09:37:22 AM »


We have had almost a dozen Feit BR30 and PAR30 LED lights in service for over a year.  They generate no measurable noise on the XTBM.  Unlike CFLs, they come on instantly at full brightness.  The color has good WAF, and they are significantly brighter than the CFLs they replaced.

I haven't tried the other styles of Feit LED bulbs, but I hope they are also compatible with X10 systems.  (These came from Costco.)

Jeff
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dave w

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2015, 05:08:12 PM »

I haven't tried the other styles of Feit LED bulbs, but I hope they are also compatible with X10 systems.  (These came from Costco.)

I have several Feit LED bulbs, spot bulbs and "globe" bulbs which do not generate noise in the X10 spectrum. I am not completelly happy with their reliability, but they have not been a problem for my X10.
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PCorsaro

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2015, 11:06:46 PM »

I am using per table Qty 4 (100W Eqv) GE 17W Dimmable A21 1600 Lum Color 2700K
We have 8 tables so 32 bulbs

I have never tried filters on the output of x10 (between x10 and 4 lamps) I can try that.

Should I repair the Diodes? (Put back current sense)???

I have Qty 5 Smarthome filterlines model 1626, after get answer about current sense diode I will try the 5 of them


Was using the filters on Neon signs
(neon signs do not seem to change the problem) (we tested with all other things off and also on)

Nothing is for sure on this testing, one time I believed that problem started to occur after we added the 4th table.
But, one time we had all working, than turned most off, customer came in and we could not turn the table on.

Since the electrical connection is way up in 12ft celling, it is difficult to try things.

All tables are on same breaker except one.  All on the same phase.

Thanks so much
Paul
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 12:03:21 AM by PCorsaro »
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Brian H

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2015, 06:10:54 AM »

No you don't have to repair the diodes.
Many users are running fine with the diodes removed.
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PCorsaro

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2015, 08:35:52 PM »

I had to give up

X10 and multiple LEDs can not work.

Maybe if we wanted to spend few more $100s I could get meter for noise, and more filtering, maybe it will work.

May have to go to z-wave, which is expensive ($100 for Hub, $38 a table for lamp module).  Does not use the AC lines.

Thanks for all the help.

Do you think X10 will come out with newer modules that handle LEDs and may use WiFi ??

Paul

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dhouston

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2015, 10:20:43 PM »

You might be able to use a TM751 at each table. Use each on a different house code and use the relay (RF operated) in the TM751s to operate the LEDs. It would require rotating the HC dial on the RF remote to choose a table. Also, I haven't paid a lot of attention to whether there might be issues with the TM751 relays and LEDs. Of course, the relays do not allow dimming but I wonder why you need dimming at a pool table. If it will work, it should cost much less than ZWave, Zigbee, Insteon or any of the other wireless systems.

If there are no issues regarding the TM751 relay and LEDs, it would be very simple to implement an RF control system (depending on your skill level). 16 pushbutton switches, a PIC or other MCU with 16 inputs and one output, a +5V power supply, plus a 310MHz RF transmitter module. See...

« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 01:33:34 AM by dhouston »
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Brian H

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2015, 06:21:36 AM »

The X10 WiFi interface is being actively developed right now.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=28909.0
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joe s.

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2015, 11:15:09 AM »

I'm struggling with the concept of typical LED's either creating noise - or "sucking" that much signal (now, if you said CFL's the bad experience would be expected).  It feels like either an added electrical device must somehow be involved or something else has changed.  I do know that every appliance or lamp module effectively diminishes X10 signal levels, just by "listening".  You have eight of them with every module (except 1) on the same breaker over a long wire run (I assume plenty of separation between tables) - so that might actually be the root cause.

Although you did say all 8 tables worked with incandescents - so that's the REAL mystery.  1132B's generate fairly weak X10 signals (in my experience) but a TM751 on the same circuit seems like it s/b enough.  Guess I'll just stay baffled.
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dhouston

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2015, 11:47:51 AM »

I'm struggling with the concept of typical LED's either creating noise
Many LED bulbs use switching power supplies with a frequency that is close enough to 120kHz to cause problems for X-10 receivers (which have very wide bandwidth - they typically respond between 75 & >200kHz). IIRC, both Charles Sullivan and Jeff Volp also saw this in their tests.

And, I measured 10Vpp from the 1132 I tested. It was a very early version - they may have changed later.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 11:52:52 AM by dhouston »
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JeffVolp

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Re: X10 System and LEDs Pool Hall
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2015, 01:11:46 PM »

I'm struggling with the concept of typical LED's either creating noise - or "sucking" that much signal (now, if you said CFL's the bad experience would be expected).

While the Feit PAR30 and BR30 LED bulbs we bought over a year ago at Costco cause no problems at all, the little 4W Lumoform LED light I bought maybe 5 years ago was another story.  It injects almost 2Vpp onto the powerline.  Because its frequency is near 120KHz, it kills any X10 operation on the circuit it is connected to.

See this for an example:  http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb-anr.pdf

Jeff
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