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Author Topic: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer  (Read 5132 times)

HA Dave

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2016, 11:45:13 AM »

...... I won't buy tech that relies on some companies service that has no reason to expect will last forever.  Tech has a finite life span, but that doesn't mean that I can't continue to use it past that typical life span anyway.  I have a VCR and watched a movie last night on it. ......

What is that VCR resolution... 340X480? Well at least they still make and sell movies in that format. Right?

I can't believe this thread! Technology is (by definition) The application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes.

Unless we have another dark ages.... tech will remain a moving target. We can never have the latest-greatest... or at least not for very long. Because new better stuff keeps rolling out right behind last months latest greatest. The best way to exploit developing technologies isn't to watch a 40 year old grainy video tape (or was that supposed to just be a joke?). The best way to get the best use from new tech is selecting value purchases. Well developed products that integrates existing tech and attempts to future-proof the product line with available download upgrades. 

So much of what I read here [at the X10 forum] reads like X10 users have become Home Automation Survivalists. What's the deal guys? Are we prepping for the fall of the Internet? Is someone working on a way to automatically light candles made from the wax of the bee's we keep out by the pond?

Seriously. What is the direction we are heading here? Has X10 users become a bunch of old men set in their ways. And hoping to just limp the automation along enough.... that it's still working when we are hauled off to our graves. I can NOT recall the last time anyone shared a new application or use of any product here.

Is this the current state of all automation forums/products/users? Is all of the HA community hunkering down.... or just X10 users?

P.S. I can certainly understand the VCR post. My wife and I discarded over 1500 VCR movies... many could not be replaced (at the time). Now my DVD and BlueRay collection is well over 1000 strong. And... I have set-up my home theater to view streaming content. Change... is the only thing that remains the same.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 11:58:36 AM by HA Dave »
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Knightrider

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2016, 02:54:14 PM »


I can't believe this thread! Technology is (by definition) The application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes.


Quote
What's the deal guys? Are we prepping for the fall of the Internet?


YES.  You know that where I live, internet is a problem. Before the dark ages (exactly three years ago) I used a dedicated phone line and dial up at 28.8 to access the web. got rid of my wired phone lines the month that my phones were online for exactly 50% of the billing cycle and AT&T billed me for the full month. My home lines are now cellular and my home network is LTE, but sometimes that isn't great due to the weather.
I like HA, but cannot rely on the cloud to run it. 
Besides, what happens when the president declares martial law and seizes the internet and radio waves? What then?  ;D
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bkenobi

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2016, 06:46:09 PM »

Not really what I was trying to illustrate, but I understand your opinion.  I was simply comparing watching a VHS movie (an old dead tech) on my TV (a CRT actually, so technically dead tech too) rather than watching a DVD (almost dead tech) or streaming over the internets (current tech, but my ISP provides terrible speeds at too high a cost so I don't typically use it for much).  This is pretty similar to HA in that I have old components that work with new components and unless the task changes or the module dies, I want it to continue to function in performing the task I gave it.  I know lights are now LED in many homes, but whether they are LED, CFL, incandescent, or nuclear, I simply want a switch to toggle the light source.  If the new technology (cloud based in for comparison) can't function because the server goes down, that's not an improvement over my clunky X10 modules.  Maybe I sound like an old man, but then I'll have to say...


GET OFF MY LAWN!   :'
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HA Dave

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2016, 07:52:17 PM »

..... I was simply comparing watching a VHS movie (an old dead tech) on my TV (a CRT actually, so technically dead tech too) rather than watching a DVD (almost dead tech) or streaming over the internets (current tech, but my ISP provides terrible speeds at too high a cost so I don't typically use it for much).  This is pretty similar to HA in that I have old components that work with new components and unless the task changes or the module dies, I want it to continue to function in performing the task I gave it. .......... If the new technology (cloud based in for comparison) can't function because the server goes down, that's not an improvement over my clunky X10 modules.  

... You know that where I live, internet is a problem....... My home lines are now cellular and my home network is LTE, but sometimes that isn't great due to the weather. I like HA, but cannot rely on the cloud to run it.

I know I must have.... but I sincerely did not mean to sound insensitive to those with Internet disabilities.

Of course we need to keep existing systems running. And we need to operate in less than perfect environments. Knightrider is a stellar example of extreme automation operating outside of a natively high tech environment.

But we also need to continue to keep looking forward. Although I may be a little too progressive in what I expect of the technology... and how fast I expect development.  
 
Besides, what happens when the president declares martial law and seizes the internet and radio waves? What then?  ;D

I don't know. Is the gopher thread still around? And..... I'll pick you up as we drive down to DC to march with all the other old (and irate) men.  
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 08:10:41 PM by HA Dave »
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Knightrider

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2016, 08:28:24 AM »

Quote
.....Internet disabilities. ....


Yep.   :'
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JeffVolp

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2016, 09:19:27 AM »

Unless we have another dark ages.... tech will remain a moving target. We can never have the latest-greatest... or at least not for very long. Because new better stuff keeps rolling out right behind last months latest greatest. The best way to exploit developing technologies isn't to watch a 40 year old grainy video tape (or was that supposed to just be a joke?). The best way to get the best use from new tech is selecting value purchases. Well developed products that integrates existing tech and attempts to future-proof the product line with available download upgrades. 

So much of what I read here [at the X10 forum] reads like X10 users have become Home Automation Survivalists. What's the deal guys? Are we prepping for the fall of the Internet? Is someone working on a way to automatically light candles made from the wax of the bee's we keep out by the pond?

We have a library that still includes several hundred VHS movies that we occasionally watch.  While the quality is certainly not up to BD or even DVD standards, we watch for the content, not to see each whisker on the actor's face.  Some of us don't have the money to replace older products with the latest technology.

You must remember the problems the demise of X10 WTI caused for those of us who were using ActiveHome Pro.  That is one reason why I will not choose a product that requires cloud support to function.  As some people have pointed out, there are already devices that are no longer being supported.  When I invest in a product or technology, I expect it to last.  Almost all my tools date from the '70's.  And X10 continues to function in our home virtually flawlessly.  Over the last decade my goal has been to help others achieve the same level of reliability.

The latest technology can be great, but much of it is a passing fad that will go unsupported as the popularity wanes.

Jeff
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HA Dave

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2016, 10:34:03 AM »

... The best way to exploit developing technologies isn't to watch a 40 year old grainy video tape (or was that supposed to just be a joke?).......
So much of what I read here [at the X10 forum] reads like X10 users have become Home Automation Survivalists.......

We have a library that still includes several hundred VHS movies that we occasionally watch.  While the quality is certainly not up to BD or even DVD standards, we watch for the content, not to see each whisker on the actor's face.  Some of us don't have the money to replace older products with the latest technology..

Yeah... no offense but keeping old VHS tapes around just isn't normal. When was the last time you actually watched one? Keeping old stuff like that can be more like hoarding than anything else. Often times the (old) public library systems will lend DVD's for free. I am not a wealthy man... this is NOT a money issue.

You must remember the problems the demise of X10 WTI caused for those of us who were using ActiveHome Pro. That is one reason why I will not choose a product that requires cloud support to function.  As some people have pointed out, there are already devices that are no longer being supported..

Being an AHP user since the beginning.... I am well aware of the failures of the bankruptcy system in WA. Consumers should have been protected! Some assets should have been reserved from liquidation to maintain the X10 server presentence. A promise to use a big name server system with long term service plans.... would go a long way to preserve confidence in modern X10 tech.    

When I invest in a product or technology, I expect it to last.  Almost all my tools date from the '70's.  And X10 continues to function in our home virtually flawlessly.  Over the last decade my goal has been to help others achieve the same level of reliability. .

I also find X10 to be completely reliable. Thanks in no small part to your XTBM-Pro X10 Signal Analyzer. Your fine [high quality] products have been helpful to many! You have done an impressive job with your products and your contributions here at the forum as well.

The latest technology can be great, but much of it is a passing fad that will go unsupported as the popularity wanes.

Yes... I know. That is why I am still a loyal X10 user. But being attached to an old reliable product doesn't mean we can't also progress with the new developing tech. This is NOT either-or. We can have it all.

Maybe someone.... some X10 user code-writer.... could create an app that runs off of our own individual clouds (we all have cloud space right?). Then we can have the very best of ALL WORLDS... and no one gets left out or left behind. I would hate to see anyone excluded from automation..... even those with solar powered off-grid cabins.... should be able to enjoy automation.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 10:43:45 AM by HA Dave »
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JeffVolp

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2016, 11:04:24 AM »

Yeah... no offense but keeping old VHS tapes around just isn't normal. When was the last time you actually watched one? Keeping old stuff like that can be more like hoarding than anything else.

Most recently - Andromeda Strain (the original) and Executive Decision (Kurt Russell), and before that the Long, Long Trailer (Lucy).  Many of our VHS tapes are children oriented, and we pull them out when the grandkids visit.  But we also have some great movies from the 80's.

A promise to use a big name server system with long term service plans.... would go a long way to preserve confidence in modern X10 tech.

Even big name companies have gone down - Enron, Lucent, Worldcom, ...  One of the large solar energy companies recently went down when a major contract was cancelled.

Several years ago a construction project cut the only fiber optic link feeding our city, and we were without any Internet service for a couple of days while it was spliced it back together.  So I would rather rely on something that I can control myself than something that requires connectivity outside our home.

Jeff
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bkenobi

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2016, 11:06:53 AM »

Maybe someone.... some X10 user code-writer.... could create an app that runs off of our own individual clouds (we all have cloud space right?). Then we can have the very best of ALL WORLDS... and no one gets left out or left behind. I would hate to see anyone excluded from automation..... even those with solar powered off-grid cabins.... should be able to enjoy automation.

That almost sounds like a personal server such as a low powered RPi running a web server with HA software.  I wonder where I would find something like that that could power all available technologies?

Anyway, keeping a library of content could be considered hoarding but then why would they sell DVD/BD in the first place if they didn't intend for us to keep it.  If it was intended to view the movie once and then discard, we should all just move over to Red Box or streaming (depending on your disability level).  I keep things that I buy until they no longer serve a perceived service.  If my VCR breaks, the movies hit the bricks too.  Until then, they will sit at the lower back of my media cabinet with the hundreds of DVDs hiding them.  Oh, and though I still have a binder and boxes of music CD's, I have ripped them to my personal cloud (network file server) so that I can continue to use it with my futuristic Android music box.  Of course, I haven't pulled a CD out in years but in that case it's more in case the server crashes and I have to restore my collection the painful way.  It also keeps me all legit in that I can prove I own the CD as opposed to selling the originals and keeping the (now) pirated content on my cloud.
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HA Dave

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2016, 07:28:58 PM »

.... keeping a library of content could be considered hoarding but then why would they sell DVD/BD in the first place if they didn't intend for us to keep it.

I don't know why those "they" people make people do the things "they" do. I don't even know who "they" are. And I don't understand why people hoard.

.... If my VCR breaks, the movies hit the bricks too.  Until then, they will sit at the lower back of my media cabinet with the hundreds of DVDs hiding them.

I have an old VCR as I sometimes convert old media for people. But those old mechanical devices have little rubber belts. The odd's are... if it has set for long... the old VCR is useless anyway.

I am really taken aback. I had no idea anyone was still hoarding... let alone using... the old VCR tapes. You all must live in huge homes! I've never had that much storage space.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 07:32:08 PM by HA Dave »
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Modern automation is much more than turning things on and off.
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HA Dave

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2016, 07:42:02 PM »


Most recently - Andromeda Strain (the original)

It was a good movie. I remember seeing it... I think... while on leave from the Army (we lost that war). But if you like the old classics they are still available on-line at YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGypuIl7Ddw) and other places.
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Modern automation is much more than turning things on and off.
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JeffVolp

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2016, 12:23:31 AM »


Most recently - Andromeda Strain (the original)

It was a good movie. I remember seeing it... I think... while on leave from the Army (we lost that war). But if you like the old classics they are still available on-line at YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGypuIl7Ddw) and other places.

The book was better.  We still have that in our library too.  I haven't tried any rental YouTube videos, but the ones that can be downloaded for free are pretty poor quality.

Jeff
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dhouston

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2016, 06:45:25 AM »

The book was better.  We still have that in our library too.
VHS tapes, books, CRT oscilloscope - what other relics do you hoard? :o
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 06:49:08 AM by dhouston »
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JeffVolp

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2016, 09:18:06 AM »

VHS tapes, books, CRT oscilloscope - what other relics do you hoard? :o

Our library has almost 1000 books cataloged.  And that is 4 CRT oscilloscopes - 2 Tektronix 7603 beasts, and 2 others.  One is an old Heathkit I tried to give away years ago.  I did get rid of the CGA monitor, but I kept the old NEC 2A as a backup to support some old hardware.  We have 8 computers, 5 of which are used on a daily basis - 2 running XP and 3 Windows 7.  Another is an XP backup for the lab computer, and another is an old laptop that I use for ActiveHome Pro when testing.  The last is an ancient Epson kept to support some old factory automation equipment I developed years ago.

I much prefer the 7603 to the digital storage scope for daily use, but the digital storage scope was invaluable for capturing entire X10 strings (especially the extended codes).

Then for nostalgia I saved various enthusiast magazines from the 60's and 70's.  I have the first few years of Byte and Kilobaud magazines, back when we were building our own computers from components and wire-wrap boards.  And yes, I still have that stuff too.  Everything has its place on shelves in several walk-in closets and storage rooms.

We also have the stuff left behind by our ping-pong children before they established their own families, but that is out in the garage 3rd bay.  If they don't eventually take it, most will go to DI (our version of Salvation Army).

Jeff
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bkenobi

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Re: Cloudless, PC-less, PLC-less timer
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2016, 10:35:29 AM »

Books?  You know they have readers for that now.  Geeze.   rofl
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