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Author Topic: Yet another LED issue . . . leakage current and the local control circuit  (Read 4675 times)

dspiffy

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Still working on the lighting in my new house.

I have 3 lamps controlled by X10 lighting modules (though appliance modules have the same issue) that, when turned off, still light at about half brightness.  They were advertised as not dimmable but dim properly with the lamp modules.

I doubt anyone here can answer this question, but am I risking the bulbs by allowing them to glow in the off position?

Also, does anyone have the information for disabling the local control in lamp modules?  I have found it for plug in appliance modules.  here I have one plug in lamp module and one hard wire (labeled Leviton)
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Brian H

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Local Control Sensing maybe keeping the LED bulbs glowing with older Lamp and Appliance Modules.
A quick test to see if it is Local Control Sensing. Is get a power tap so both the LED bulb in question and a small 4 watt incandescent night light are both on the Lamp Modules outlet. If the LED stops glowing you have Local Control sensing.

The Lamp Module does it go On and Off fast or ramp on and off?
The older Lamp Modules {on and off fast} have local control sensing and there is modification instructions to remove it.
Same for the older before CFL friendly appliance modules.

Newer Soft Start modules ramp on and off at a few second rate.
The Soft Start Lamp Modules do have Local Control Sensing. They where redesigned and the current is much lower than the older ones. Giving less issues with many loads.
I have not seen modifications for the Soft Start Lamp Modules.

The CFL friendly Appliance module where supposed to no longer have Local Control Sensing.

I will try and find an active web site with the needed instructions. As some of the sites are now gone.

As for the Leviton. Is it a two wire switch {Line and Load but no Neutral connection}. They steal power through the load and are strictly made for 120 volt Incandescent and 120 volt halogen bulbs. The power being stolen through the LED bulb is keeping it glowing and I doubt it can be corrected. Unless you have a neutral power wire in the switch box and are capable of doing the modification to add one to the Leviton.

Can you hurt the LED bulbs not rated for dimmers with a dimmer. Always a possibility as they are not made for dimmer to drive them.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 07:38:45 AM by Brian H »
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Brian H

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There is some information on the older Lamp and Wall Switch. Modifications here: http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mods.html
 
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dave w

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Try a dimmable LED and see if it glows. Mine do not (Sylvania brand) and I am running some of them on two wire switches. As Brian stated; a non dimmable LED should NOT be controlled by a dimmer. Even when full ON (not dimmed) the AC waveform from any dimmer (not just a Lamp Module) has a slight distortion, this could shorten the life of non-dimmable bulbs. A dimmable LED or CFL are designed to deal with the wave form distortion.
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racerfern

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This borders on hijacking but it is still a dimmable LED issue. I can start another thread if need be. Here is a link to a short video of what a camera sees when the outdoor lights are turned on. It happens at all brightnesses but the bulbs do turn off completely.

However, the naked eye sees a flickering bulb unless it is off or at 100%. Anywhere in-between it is incessantly flickering as if it is 20Hz or even less. There are four LED bulbs, 8watt, 75watt equiv. This is not on an X10 dimmer at this time, it's on a zwave dimmer module. If I remove the zwave module and install a conventional dimmer switch, the bulbs go from a max of about 50% to maybe 20% over the top 1/2 of the slider switch. The bottom third of the slider switch then does nothing until you get to off.

Later on today I'm going to connect a soft start X10 dimmer as a test and see what those results are.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwLDOd7qIhnsRENTa0FrN0o4X1E
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dspiffy

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There is some information on the older Lamp and Wall Switch. Modifications here: http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mods.html

Thanks, I see the lamp module, but not the hard wired module.

It looks like these, except the code switches are on the sides, not the top:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Px8AAOxy-j9SSHAe/s-l300.jpg
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dspiffy

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Try a dimmable LED and see if it glows. Mine do not (Sylvania brand) and I am running some of them on two wire switches. As Brian stated; a non dimmable LED should NOT be controlled by a dimmer. Even when full ON (not dimmed) the AC waveform from any dimmer (not just a Lamp Module) has a slight distortion, this could shorten the life of non-dimmable bulbs. A dimmable LED or CFL are designed to deal with the wave form distortion.

None of the dimmable LEDs I have glow, but all of the dimmable LEDs I have are 5 watts or more.  The non dimmable LEDs I have that are 5 watts are more also do not glow.  Those that are less than 5 watts, do.

Normally when I test a non dimmable LED on a dimmer it blinks.  These dim smoothly.
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Brian H

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The Leviton Fixture Modules are the 6375 Relay and 6376 Dimmer.
I have not seen any specific modifications for them.
I found links to both and the dials are on each side.
The product page for them is on a links below.
http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_6375.htm
http://www.twacomm.com/catalog/model_6376.htm

Since X10WTI probably made the Leviton Modules. If you find any modifications for the X10Pro XPDF and XPFM they maybe similar.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 06:29:05 PM by Brian H »
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dave w

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Those that are less than 5 watts, do. {glow}
Sorry, I did not understand that the LEDs you were were less than five watts, when questioning whether the glow when the module is off would harm the bulb. If they are that small I doubt they have a power suplly any more complicated than diodes and resistors. I doubt letting them glow will have any affect on bulb life. 
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dspiffy

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Those that are less than 5 watts, do. {glow}
Sorry, I did not understand that the LEDs you were were less than five watts, when questioning whether the glow when the module is off would harm the bulb. If they are that small I doubt they have a power suplly any more complicated than diodes and resistors. I doubt letting them glow will have any affect on bulb life.

I didnt go into a lot of detail on the bulbs because I didnt assume anyone here was an LED expert.  You seem to be.

I wrongly assumed these were under 5w:

http://lightyournight.com/product/kichler-7-watt-led-par20-lamp/

Putting a single one of these on an X10 module results in a faint flickering when the module is off.  Multiples work fine.  A single of the PAR30 version works fine.

Wrongly assumed these were less than 5w-- I ordered the 8w version.  With a single bulb on a module, you hear a faint ticking from the bulb when the module is off, but cant see any light.  Didnt try multiple bulbs.

I discontinued operation on both of those, but I have no choice by to use X10 on these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N0UL1RC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have one on one module and two on another.  They're advertised as not dimmable, and even the box says "not dimmable", but they dim beautifully on X10.  However when the modules are off, they are still on at about half brightness.

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dave w

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I didnt go into a lot of detail on the bulbs because I didnt assume anyone here was an LED expert.  You seem to be.
I have one on one module and two on another.  They're advertised as not dimmable, and even the box says "not dimmable", but they dim beautifully on X10.  However when the modules are off, they are still on at about half brightness.
Nope, not an expert by any means.

The Kichler bulbs have three high power LED so likely does have a more sophisticated power supply. If the flicker does not bother you, and they seem to work OK when dimmed, I would at least dim to about 60%-70% and check the reflector heat sink, near the base, for excessive heat.

I have some larger Kichler spots, not in use (big sale at Menards). I will play with them on a lamp module and see if they act silly.
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dspiffy

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I didnt go into a lot of detail on the bulbs because I didnt assume anyone here was an LED expert.  You seem to be.
I have one on one module and two on another.  They're advertised as not dimmable, and even the box says "not dimmable", but they dim beautifully on X10.  However when the modules are off, they are still on at about half brightness.
Nope, not an expert by any means.

The Kichler bulbs have three high power LED so likely does have a more sophisticated power supply. If the flicker does not bother you, and they seem to work OK when dimmed, I would at least dim to about 60%-70% and check the reflector heat sink, near the base, for excessive heat.

I have some larger Kichler spots, not in use (big sale at Menards). I will play with them on a lamp module and see if they act silly.

That's exactly where I got them, Menards on clearance.  I have myriad PAR20s and PAR30s.

A single PAR20 flickers.  Two or more is fine.  A single PAR30 is fine.  Two PAR30s will turn back on when turned off.  Three or more is fine.

At this point, I just matched them to what works.  I have one PAR30 on an appliance module, another 3 PAR30s on a different appliance module.

The little 0.8watters on the other hand, I dont have any option other than to put them on lamp modules.
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dspiffy

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The Kichlers are NOT dimmable BTW.
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Brian H

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Finding LED bulbs that work with X10 and other protocol modules. Can be a challenge.
Sometimes even the same manufacturers part can vary.
I have some Feit A1600/830/10KLED/2 13 Watt 100 watt equivalent non-dimmamabe.
I have some Feit A1600/830/10KLED/2(L) 14.7 Watts 100 watt equivalent non-dimmamabe.
The boxes and bulbs look identical. If you didn't read the actual part numbers it can be easily missed.
With an Insteon ApplianceLinc module with an X10 address added. Has Local Control Sensing set to ignore.
The earlier ones I bought are 100% fine. On and Off no issues.
The last batch {(L)suffix} when the module is off. They pulse On every few seconds with a brief flash.

Have some dimmable Philips 12E26A60 EnduraLED and 12E26A60-1 EnduraLED LED Bulbs.
Philips changed the designed to use less LEDs and use brighter one for the same Lumen output.
The electronics where changed to drive the different LED assembly. Act 100% different from each other
on X10 and Insteon dimmers.

One other point. X10 and X10Pro dimmers have a minimum wattage specification. I have seen many say 40 watts and a few say 60 watts.

I may try my Switch Infinia LED bulbs with X10 modules. They are the only ones I have ever seen with liquid cooling material inside the shell.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 07:43:19 AM by Brian H »
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dave w

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A single PAR20 flickers.  Two or more is fine.  A single PAR30 is fine.  Two PAR30s will turn back on when turned off.  Three or more is fine.
At this point, I just matched them to what works.  I have one PAR30 on an appliance module, another 3 PAR30s on a different appliance module.
Flickering and coming back ON can be fixed with a 4 or 7 watt incandescent nightlight IF you have the room in the fixture for the nightlight and the "outlet adaptor socket". Or if they are plug-in lights, plug the nightlight in an extension cord with the LED light.

I do not recommend this but I have a couple of ceiling fans that would re-trigger the controlling wire-in Appliance Module back on as soon as I turned them off. I think it was motor EMF confusing the module.  I put a 33K, 3 watt resistor across the fan motor leads. I used 3 watt, flame proof, film resistors I found on Ebay. I would not use anything less than 3 watts, although the actual power through the resistor is only about half a watt.   
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:44:25 AM by dave w »
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