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Author Topic: Yet another LED issue . . . leakage current and the local control circuit  (Read 3866 times)

dave w

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A single PAR20 flickers.  Two or more is fine.  A single PAR30 is fine.  Two PAR30s will turn back on when turned off.  Three or more is fine.
At this point, I just matched them to what works.  I have one PAR30 on an appliance module, another 3 PAR30s on a different appliance module.

Flickering and coming back ON can be fixed with a 4 or 7 watt incandescent nightlight IF you have the room in the fixture for the nightlight and the "outlet adaptor socket". Or if they are plug-in lights, plug the nightlight in an extension cord with the LED light.

I do not recommend this but I have a couple of ceiling fans that would re-trigger the controlling wire-in Appliance Module back on as soon as I turned them off. I think it was motor EMF confusing the module.  I put a 33K, 3 watt resistor across the fan motor leads (parallel with motor, not in series ) . I used 3 watt, flame proof, film resistors I found on Ebay. I would not use anything less than 3 watts, although the actual power through the resistor is only about half a watt.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 11:09:44 PM by dave w »
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dspiffy

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Adding incandescent nightlight bulbs to circuits powering LED nightlight bulbs defeats the purpose of switching to LED.
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dave w

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Adding incandescent nightlight bulbs to circuits powering LED nightlight bulbs defeats the purpose of switching to LED.
This is the first time you actually stated you are using X10 modules to power LED nightlights. I thought you were powering PAR 20s and 30s. Yep using a 4 watt incandescent bulb to stop the flickering of a LED nightlight drawing a fraction of a watt, ain't very smart.
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dspiffy

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Adding incandescent nightlight bulbs to circuits powering LED nightlight bulbs defeats the purpose of switching to LED.
This is the first time you actually stated you are using X10 modules to power LED nightlights. I thought you were powering PAR 20s and 30s. Yep using a 4 watt incandescent bulb to stop the flickering of a LED nightlight drawing a fraction of a watt, ain't very smart.

I posted the following before but it probably got lost in all the other discussion:

I discontinued operation on (the problematic PAR20 and PAR30 installations,) but I have no choice by to use X10 on these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N0UL1RC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have one on one module and two on another.  They're advertised as not dimmable, and even the box says "not dimmable", but they dim beautifully on X10.  However when the modules are off, they are still on at about half brightness.
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Brian H

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Since we have covered a few different modules.
Are we presently talking about older before Soft Start LM465s?

I looked at the LED bulbs in the Amazon Link you provided
They are a .8 watt bulb. That is .0066 Amps current when fully On.
The Local Sensing current from an older LM465 is about .0016 Amps.
Depending on the bulbs electronics it is very possible they will glow.
I have tried a few different small LED bulbs on LM465s and many do glow.

I have modified a Black and Decker FWLR Lamp Module made by X10 with a different case.
Circuit board is basically the same as an old LM465.
To eliminate all the Local Sensing Current and my small LED bulbs do not glow.

I can post details and a hand updated schematic if you are interested.

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dspiffy

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Since we have covered a few different modules.
Are we presently talking about older before Soft Start LM465s?

I looked at the LED bulbs in the Amazon Link you provided
They are a .8 watt bulb. That is .0066 Amps current when fully On.
The Local Sensing current from an older LM465 is about .0016 Amps.
Depending on the bulbs electronics it is very possible they will glow.
I have tried a few different small LED bulbs on LM465s and many do glow.

I have modified a Black and Decker FWLR Lamp Module made by X10 with a different case.
Circuit board is basically the same as an old LM465.
To eliminate all the Local Sensing Current and my small LED bulbs do not glow.

I can post details and a hand updated schematic if you are interested.

My modules range from 1980s to recent but none are soft start.

Any schematics are appreciated.
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JeffVolp

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They are a .8 watt bulb. That is .0066 Amps current when fully On.

Gee, that may be less power than the X10 module that controls it.  Why not just leave it on?

Jeff
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Brian H

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You may want to keep an eye on your LED bulbs for awhile when running from an LM465 even at 100% On.
I was using a low power LED for some tests with the modified LM465. It seemed to dim fine. I left it On at 100% and a hour or so later it was Off and smelled like something was burning. Another model bulb has been fine so far.

The LM465 is a 120 volt AC powered device. If you are not capable to do electrical modifications safely
Don't do it.

This is for the older LM465 modules and I have not done long term tests for problems.
Remove D10, R6 and R3.
Marked up schematic from a web page download.
The parts ID matched the silk screening on the PCB.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 09:55:41 AM by Brian H »
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dspiffy

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They are a .8 watt bulb. That is .0066 Amps current when fully On.

Gee, that may be less power than the X10 module that controls it.  Why not just leave it on?

Jeff

Because they are bright and we have several of them in lamps in our living room and sometimes we want it dark.
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Brian H

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If you get any of the Soft Start LM465s.
R14 330K 1/2W can be removed to kill the Local Control Sensing.
The Soft Start LM465 are a completely different design from the older ones. I have found they are not as tolerant to lower than specified minimum wattage loads and some brand LED's. Mine also do not dim all the way down, with any type load, to 0% more like 30%.
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dspiffy

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If you get any of the Soft Start LM465s.
R14 330K 1/2W can be removed to kill the Local Control Sensing.
The Soft Start LM465 are a completely different design from the older ones. I have found they are not as tolerant to lower than specified minimum wattage loads and some brand LED's. Mine also do not dim all the way down, with any type load, to 0% more like 30%.

Kind of surprising, but I have yet to encounter any of the soft starts.

I buy all my new X10 stuff from Big John.  Not sure if you guys know him.  He's given the museum some great prices and fast shipping.

I have some plug and power stuff I've had since I was a kid in the early 80s.  The Leviton stuff I found at a thrift store.  I also have a few other modules and controllers I bought used on eBay.
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Brian H

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Yes some of the regulars here. Know Big John's online store.

Soft Start was introduced in 2007 for Lamp Modules and Wall Switches.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart

Wall switches also have Preset Dim.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 06:53:09 PM by Brian H »
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dspiffy

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Update:

The 0.8w LED bulbs, I have put as many as (4) on a single lamp module and they still are dim when off.  Adding more bulbs on the same module makes them negligibly dimmer.  A barely noticeable difference.  They dont seem to create any issues with the bulbs or modules and for now I'm just living with it.  Since the lamps in question are all designed to be decorative more than functional it's not problematic yet.  Right now I have 10 of them in operation on 3 modules.

The Kichler PAR30's . . . I have two on one appliance (since the bulbs are not dimmable) module along with an offbrand R20 that IS dimmable.  With the module off, the R20 ALSO glows dim, even with the other two larger bulbs in the circuit.  When I disconnect the PAR20, I can no longer turn off the module.  When I turn it off from either controller, a few seconds pass and it cycles back on.  I am going to try swapping the bulbs and the module.

I havent found instructions on how to disable the local control circuit on the appliance modules or the non standard lamp modules. 
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dspiffy

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I have changed the bulbs (to other identical bulbs) and the module (to another identical module) and the issue persists.  It does not do it with one bulb at a time, nor does it do it with three.
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dspiffy

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I have changed the bulbs (to other identical bulbs) and the module (to another identical module) and the issue persists.  It does not do it with one bulb at a time, nor does it do it with three.

I was wrong, it does it with three non dimmable LEDs.  It does not do it if one of the LEDs is dimmable.

So far a solution I've found is to plug a 3 outlet tap into the module that has a neon indicator light.  Dollar Tree used to sell them, not sure if they still do.  The neon light draws less than 1/4 watt.
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