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Author Topic: Yet another LED issue . . . leakage current and the local control circuit  (Read 3865 times)

Brian H

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The small neon light. Is enough of a load to lower or kill the small sensing current. Allowing the LED bulbs to function.
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dspiffy

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Ok so that module stayed off for close to 24 hours with the neon pilot light power tap in the circuit.  JUST turned itself on.

I need a better solution.
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Brian H

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A neon  pilot light. Has a turn On voltage of between 65 and 90 volts due to the characteristics of a neon bulb.
So any sensing current that did not cause the off voltage on the outlet to be high enough. Would not load down the sensing voltages. As it was not conducting.

In theory. When the voltage got high enough and the neon bulb started to conduct. It could have triggered the Local Control Sensing and it went On.

A 33K {33,000 Ohm} 3 Watt flame retardant resistor. Safely wired into an AC plug. Added to the power tap in a plug was mentioned by dave w. That would work and when On would draw an extra .44 Watts.

Removing the Local Control Sensing components inside the Lamp module is another way that may work.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 07:43:18 AM by Brian H »
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dspiffy

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A neon  pilot light. Has a turn On voltage of between 65 and 90 volts due to the characteristics of a neon bulb.
So any sensing current that did not cause the off voltage on the outlet to be high enough. Would not load down the sensing voltages. As it was not conducting.

In theory. When the voltage got high enough and the neon bulb started to conduct. It could have triggered the Local Control Sensing and it went On.

A 33K {33,000 Ohm} 3 Watt flame retardant resistor. Safely wired into an AC plug. Added to the power tap in a plug was mentioned by dave w. That would work and when On would draw an extra .44 Watts.

Removing the Local Control Sensing components inside the Lamp module is another way that may work.

This is an appliance module.  I have been looking for instructions to disable local control for an appliance module, or a schematic of one, but havent found it.
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Brian H

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I believe yours are the older models, before X10 made the Appliance Modules CFL friendly. I usually cut both the Diode and the Jumper in them.
http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mod3.html

One thing even with the Local Control Sensing disabled. There is still a very small amount of current on the output. From the circuit that determines if the alternate action switch {the clunking sound it makes} is On or off. If you disable that current. The appliance module does not know if it is On or Off. So it pulses the switch and output On and Off. A few times trying to change from On or Off. Giving the sounds like a machine gun action and pulsing Load On and Off.  ::)

I attached a scan of a marked up schematic in the above link. As the one I traces out has a different sensing circuit.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 06:15:39 PM by Brian H »
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dspiffy

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I believe yours are the older models, before X10 made the Appliance Modules CFL friendly. I usually cut both the Diode and the Jumper in them.
http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mod3.html

One thing even with the Local Control Sensing disabled. There is still a very small amount of current on the output. From the circuit that determines if the alternate action switch {the clunking sound it makes} is On or off. If you disable that current. The appliance module does not know if it is On or Off. So it pulses the switch and output On and Off. A few times trying to change from On or Off. Giving the sounds like a machine gun action and pulsing Load On and Off.  ::)

I attached a scan of a marked up schematic in the above link. As the one I traces out has a different sensing circuit.

That website is awesome!  I will try some of the mods tonight.

I had already ordered some 33k resistors as well and I will probably try that on a different module.

I emailed Leviton as well, if they can send me a schematic of their modules I can probably figure out how to translate the mods, in addition to fixing the two failed ones I have.
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dspiffy

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So I got a spare appliance module and clipped the jumper and 1N4004.  Before swapping it with the module currently in place I tried to replicate the problem.  NOW it wont do it.
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dspiffy

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I couldnt get the issue to replicate before swapping modules, but I swapped modules anyway.  If the lights dont come back on in 24 hours I'll consider it a success.
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Brian H

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Hope it works for you.
I doubt Leviton will give you any schematics. Though floating around on some of the automation web sites there maybe a copy.
I believe some of the Leviton X10 protocol ones where made by X10WTI to their specifications and their labels.

Ed Cheung has some X10 projects and data on his web site.
http://www.edcheung.com/automa/ha.htm

Dave Houston has a lot of very good data on his site also.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/

Unfortunately The Home Automation Database by IdoBarTana is no longer in service. Was a great site for information.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 06:41:09 AM by Brian H »
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dspiffy

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They replied, they will not send the schematics.
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dspiffy

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Running into a similar issue using X10 modules to control small appliances with DC switching power supplies.

Snipped the jumper and the diode, there is much LESS leakage, but still leakage.

Have seen on this site to also snip one of the 330k resistors, but there are two, anyone know which one?

(The good news is this now makes for a total of 5 mini controllers and 16 modules in the house, more during Christmas time.)
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Brian H

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Running into a similar issue using X10 modules to control small appliances with DC switching power supplies.

Snipped the jumper and the diode, there is much LESS leakage, but still leakage.

Have seen on this site to also snip one of the 330k resistors, but there are two, anyone know which one?

(The good news is this now makes for a total of 5 mini controllers and 16 modules in the house, more during Christmas time.)

You can't kill all of the small current. The Appliance Module has a sensor in it to detect if the ratchet switch is On or Off.
If you kill the On Off sensor. It can't determine if it is On or off and tries a few time to change. Resulting in a machine gun set of ratchets.
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dspiffy

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Ok, I will try the 33k resistor trick instead.
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dspiffy

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Actually, with the diode and jumper cut, the leakage current should be significantly less.  I bet I can use a much higher value than 33k.
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Brian H

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Yes you should be able to go to a higher resistance value.
The 33K is running at about 1/2 Watt and why we suggested a 1 watt or higher. For a safety margin.
Can't give you a value off hand but 100K maybe a value to test.
The newly designed CFL Friendly Appliance Module that does not have local control. Just the On Off sensor runs at about .36Ma.
The old design was over 2mA with a DC component because of the diode.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 02:14:03 AM by Brian H »
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