Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

The New WIFI Module is now available!
                   *****Here's the link******

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off  (Read 832 times)

geobrick

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 10
Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« on: February 09, 2018, 02:10:43 PM »

I have a PAM02 Appliance Module controlling outdoor low voltage landscape lighting.
The circuit description is: 120v outlet to the PAM02 to the low voltage transformer (converts to 12-14v AC) to the various landscape lights.

Some troubleshooting info:
1) This began happening when I started replacing the low voltage 20w halogen bulbs with LED bulbs.
2) Under normal operating conditions, the PAM02 will respond to an on command but once on, will not respond to an off command (the result is the landscape lights remain on).
3) When the landscape lighting transformer (the load) is unplugged from the PAM02, it responds easily to both on and off commands.

I believe the noise is being generated by one or more of the low voltage LED bulbs and is getting back to the 120v side of the transformer where it is preventing the X10 signals from getting to the PAM02. Further experimenting has shown the bulb/bulbs in question are on one of the 3 'strings' (or circuits) of landscape lights connected to the transformer. I'm able to deduce this because the LV transformer has three independently switchable circuits and the problem only occurs when the suspect line is turned on in any combination with the other two lines.

Here is a link the landscape lighting transformer I'm using: pan-techcorp(dot)com/transformers/tr-900-1222 (put a '.' where it says '(dot)'

Is it better to put a load filter (like an XPF) downstream of the PAM02 to reduce the noise coming from the LED (via the transformer) or would I be better off putting some other filter on the Low Voltage side? If so, what type would work well on the 14V AC side?
Logged

Knightrider

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 62
  • Posts: 1703
  • I love my WM100!
    • This Automated House
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 02:48:08 PM »

Between the module and the transformer.
Logged
Remote control is cool,

but automation rules!

Brian H

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 285
  • Posts: 12440
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2018, 12:59:36 AM »

Good tests. I also think it is noise generated by the LED bulbs and the transformer.
If it  is one of the electronic types. The bulbs could be making it generate more power line noise.

Use caution with a XPPF X10 filter. Between the PAM02 output and the transformers AC power line input.
It is rated for five amps but pushing it close to five amps and it gets hot and smells. Also there could be current spike that can also add to the load you think the transformer is using.

The Smarthome 1626-10 is a ten amp X10/Insteon power line filter. Bottom outlet is filtered. Front outlet is a unfiltered pass through outlet.
Logged

geobrick

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 10
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2018, 09:46:17 AM »

Just realized I posted this in the wrong section since it's not related to the new WiFi module (which I just received and set up yesterday - independent of this noise issue). I wonder how I can get this discussion moved to the proper section.
Logged

geobrick

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 10
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2018, 10:08:26 AM »

The Smarthome 1626-10 is a ten amp X10/Insteon power line filter. Bottom outlet is filtered. Front outlet is a unfiltered pass through outlet.

Thanks, I'll consider the higher current versions. I could also wire in either an XPNR or an XPF. What do you think of those options?
Logged

Brian H

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 285
  • Posts: 12440
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2018, 10:20:52 AM »

I have no experience with an XPNR. Others here may have more information on it.

The XPF is a 20 amp wired in filter. It is very large. I believe a triple sized electrical box is needed for it.

Maybe the ratings specification for the transformer would give you information on AC line current when supplying its full rated load current.

Forgot one two filters.
JV Digital Engineering makes a ten and fifteen amp plug in filters. Jeff's products are very good. I have his XTB-IIR repeater and it gets a good signal all over my house.
http://jvde.us/xtb-f10.htm
Logged

geobrick

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 10
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2018, 10:24:45 AM »

Between the module and the transformer.

Are you saying it's better to put the filter between the module and transformer because there are more filter options available to buy for the 120v side? I agree it would be the most straight forward, least time consuming way to fix the problem so I'll probably take that route...  But if I can find the offending bulb or bulbs, shouldn't I be able to put some kind of filter (home made) on the 12Vac line closer to the source of the noise? So far I'm not seeing the transformer itself as being a contributor to the noise since all works fine when I cut off the suspect string of lights. It could just be an exercise in understanding the noise problem. I'll search for topics discussing how to find and reduce noise sources.
Logged

Brian H

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 285
  • Posts: 12440
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2018, 10:34:14 AM »

Between the output on the PAM02 and the transformers AC input. Will filter out any noise made by the load feeding back through the transformer and any noise the transformer make. If it is one of the new electronic type.
I have not seen any low voltage filters that are rated at a high enough current flow.

Jeff's great X10 troubleshooting tutorials.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
Logged

brobin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 2
  • Posts: 101
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2018, 07:51:09 AM »

I had the same problem when I replaced an inground incandescent pool bulb with an LED bulb.  Turned on fine but noise prevented turning off as well as affecting other modules in the house.  Jeff Volp suggested I install a hash choke on the hot side going from the module to the bulb.  I went to my favorite surplus electronics store (EPO in Houston, TX) and found a big box marked "Chokes" so, without knowing the specs, I gave one a try. Works perfectly and all is again well.  Next time I was there I grabbed a handful in case the need arises again as I add more LED lighting. The size is 25x20mm and the markings on it are 2482606B01 1015 96IT25.  There are probably smaller ones that would do the job but a bird in hand...  The 1000uH Miller 5258-RC that Jeff Volp recommends on his website is on ebay by searching "miller 5258."
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 08:27:09 AM by brobin »
Logged

dave w

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 133
  • Posts: 5877
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2018, 08:09:19 AM »

Are you saying it's better to put the filter between the module and transformer because there are more filter options available to buy for the 120v side? I agree it would be the most straight forward,
So far I'm not seeing the transformer itself as being a contributor to the noise since all works fine when I cut off the suspect string of lights. It could just be an exercise in understanding the noise problem. I'll search for topics discussing how to find and reduce noise sources.
X10 Filters stop the noise, AND the X10 signal as well.  So the filter needs to go between the load and the X10 module. As far as the transformer not being the problem; Is it a transformer? Or a switching power supply? Switching supplies are notorious for noise generation (although the generated "noise" may not have any effect on X10 unless it is the 110kHz to 130KHz window).
Logged
"This aftershave makes me look fat"

dhouston

  • Advanced Member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Helpful Post Rating: 37
  • Posts: 2337
    • davehouston.org
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2018, 08:19:44 AM »

although the generated "noise" may not have any effect on X10 unless it is the 110kHz to 130KHz window.
Most X10 modules have a much wider bandwidth. It's been a few years since I tested so my memory may not be exact but, IIRC, they will respond to 75-200kHz depending on signal amplitude.
Logged
This message was composed entirely from recycled letters of the alphabet using only renewable, caffeinated energy sources.
No trees, wabbits, chimps or whales died in the process.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston

dave w

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 133
  • Posts: 5877
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2018, 08:25:11 AM »

Most X10 modules have a much wider bandwidth. It's been a few years since I tested so my memory may not be exact but, IIRC, they will respond to 75-200kHz depending on signal amplitude.
Good enough for gubment work.  rofl
My point was; not all switching supplies have impact on X10.  I just should not have been so specific.
Logged
"This aftershave makes me look fat"

geobrick

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 10
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 04:55:19 PM »

Thanks for all the replies.

The load is an old fashion transformer with multiple taps differend output voltages. According to the website, it max current is 7.5 Amps so I'll need at least filter able to handle at least that.

Here's a link to the Low Voltage Outdoor light transformer: https://pan-techcorp.com/transformers/tr-900-1222

I'm intrigued by what brobin posted about Jeff Volp's recomendation for a "hash choke".  I assume by "install a hash choke on the hot side going from the module to the bulb" you mean it would be inline on the hot side between the PAM02 and the load (the transfromer). In that case, the choke would need to handle 7.5 Amps at 120v. That's similar to the plug in filters the others are recommending since those also have to handle the inline current. The XPNR on the other hand seems to be placed across the load and not in line. Instead of blocking the noise, it's probably a capacitor circuit that likely allows the lower power higher frequency signal to pass through it. Since it's not in-line, it doesn't need to handle the 7.5 amp load. I'll look at what JV is offering on his site. I bought an XTB kit from him back in 2008. I could do the same for the one of the XTB-Fs. I actually found an email from Jeff back in 2008 where he was recomending an XPF for a pool pump.
Logged

Brian H

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 285
  • Posts: 12440
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2018, 10:08:36 PM »

It may have electronics in it?
The Terminals marked COM1,COM2 and COM3 along with a photocell connector. May indicate it has some in it.

The XPNR has some tuned circuits in it.
 
Logged

geobrick

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 10
Re: Load Side Noise Preventing PAM02 From Turning Off
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2018, 04:54:40 AM »

It may have electronics in it?
The Terminals marked COM1,COM2 and COM3 along with a photocell connector. May indicate it has some in it.

The XPNR has some tuned circuits in it.

I ordered an XTB-F10 Kit from Jeff. I'm sure that will work. I was hoping to figure out a solution that was closer to the source (one or more of the LED lights on the ~14v side of the transformer).

About the transformer box, I'm pretty sure there's no fancy electronics in their. The 3 Common connections on the terminal block are controlled by the 3 switches. This allows 3 separate strings of lighting that can be individually controlled by the switches.  Think of it as just a big multi-tap transformer with one common lead and various taps ranging in output voltage. The 3 commons on the terminal block all connect to the one common lead after the switches. I think the photo cell connector is just an exposed loop of the 120v hot lead made available to the user or installer to hook up a photo cell switch that would have all the electronics needed to open and close the circuit. One day I'll open it up and take a picture to see what's inside. 
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
 

X10.com | About X10 | X10 Security Systems | Cameras| Package Deals
© Copyright 2014-2016 X10.com All rights reserved.