Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

The X10Hub (PiX10Hub) is here! Created by the Community, for the Community.:)% #:)

Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Whole house noise filter  (Read 1562 times)

JeffVolp

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 107
  • Posts: 2061
    • XTB Home Page
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 04:25:20 AM »

And... you still get a random ON somewhere? That isn't impossible.... but not common either. X10 PLC's are sent and received at a certain point of the electrical sine wave... not something that accidently happens on the powerline a lot.

There is a ceiling fixture in my office/lab with 3 CFL lights that I use for noise testing.  When the noise sums together it creates a beat frequency that almost mimics an X10 transmission.  I have witnessed an appliance module on that circuit switch by itself several times when those lights are on, but never when they are off.

Jeff
Logged
X-10 automation since the BSR days

Tuicemen

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 265
  • Posts: 9464
  • I don't work for X10, I use it successfuly!
    • Tuicemen Software
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 04:26:11 AM »

It seems to be the same 2 lights having the issue.  I changed the codes last weekend, but no luck.
Are the 2 lights on the same breaker?
What type of lights are on these modules?
Logged
Please Read Topic:
General Forum Etiquette
Before you post!

Find extra info @ My forum

dhouston

  • Advanced Member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Helpful Post Rating: 37
  • Posts: 2487
    • davehouston.org
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 04:57:44 AM »

Complaints like this usually generate as much noise here as is on the powerline. From X10's documentation for extended commands at https://www.laser.com/dhouston/X10 xtdcode.pdf
Quote
Data is accepted bit by bit as the presence or absence of 120Khz carrier occurring after the positive or negative mains zero crossing. The acceptance window begins approximately 250 usecs. and ends approximately 900 usecs. after a zero crossing. In this window 48 or more cycle of carrier are accepted as a "1" bit and fewer than 48 as a "0" bit. Except for the Startcode, each bit of data is sent in its true and complement form.

The root of the noise problem is that X10 designers were penny-wise and noise-foolish. They saved pennies by omitting decoupling capacitors and they left unused MCU pins floating. This made switches and modules sensitive to powerline spikes which X10 acknowledged in one of their FAQs (no longer online).

You may see where others have postulated that noise generating devices might actually create valid X10 signals but they do not explain why these noise sources have a preference for ON signals, why they do not show up in CM11A or CM15A logs or how the noise manages to create the alternating 01 and 10 bits in the complex error-correction pattern required by the X10 PLC protocol.

Tuicemen's suggestion of using the CM15A log to determine whether there are stray X10 commands online is the best advice. If no commands are logged for these addresses, you can be certain that you have a noise problem.

Most noise problems are local so a whole-house filter is rarely needed.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 09:50:22 AM by dhouston »
Logged
This message was composed entirely from recycled letters of the alphabet using only renewable, caffeinated energy sources.
No trees, wabbits, chimps or whales died in the process.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston

dhouston

  • Advanced Member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Helpful Post Rating: 37
  • Posts: 2487
    • davehouston.org
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 06:01:30 AM »

I've never seen noise cause a x10 device to go off, but that doesn't mean it can't.

Several years ago I had an LM465 lamp module that would frequently turn off whenever I turned on bathroom tube fluorescents. There were no X10 PLC signals logged and I could see arcing within the switch. Replacing the lamp module with an LM14A solved the issue and I later replaced the switch as well.
Logged
This message was composed entirely from recycled letters of the alphabet using only renewable, caffeinated energy sources.
No trees, wabbits, chimps or whales died in the process.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston

akeene

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 3
  • Posts: 26
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 12:24:25 PM »

Do they come "on" at the same time each time? This would tell you  a "on" command coming from some where.
I had this problem several years back, when 2 houses down, they installed a pool. along with a X10 timer to run the pump everyday.
 B:(
With the CM15a, I was able to see when it hit. I changed addresses and removed the house code of "D" from my house.
Logged
Automation is easy.. " I know"  "RIGHT " Just push a button!
Is this the modern we grew up wishing for?
I still drive my 1953 MG TD.

JeffVolp

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 107
  • Posts: 2061
    • XTB Home Page
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 06:24:13 PM »

You may see where others have postulated that noise generating devices might actually create valid X10 signals but they do not explain why these noise sources have a preference for ON signals, why they do not show up in CM11A or CM15A logs or how the noise manages to create the alternating 01 and 10 bits in the complex error-correction pattern required by the X10 PLC protocol.

In my case the appliance module turned both on AND off at different times.  What causes it is the random beat frequency from the three noise generators summing together.  I have also seen a noise source create a J Status Request.  That is a very regular bit pattern on alternate half cycles.  All it takes is an extra noise burst to fill in the second "1" in the "1110" start pattern.

Usually all a noise source does is block X10 modules from decoding commands.  But I did catch the ESM1 reporting noise from the Cellet cellphone charger was a "Good X10" signal:  http://jvde.us/x10/x10_cellet_noise.pdf

Jeff
Logged
X-10 automation since the BSR days

dhouston

  • Advanced Member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Helpful Post Rating: 37
  • Posts: 2487
    • davehouston.org
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 11:51:19 PM »

Usually all a noise source does is block X10 modules from decoding commands.  But I did catch the ESM1 reporting noise from the Cellet cellphone charger was a "Good X10" signal:  http://jvde.us/x10/x10_cellet_noise.pdf

The ESM1 does not actually check for a valid X10 signal by looking at 10s & 01s but only looks at the total of 1s & 0s. I don't think it even looked for the 1110 start pattern.

Before it was introduced, Brian Karras was looking at buying the rights to the ESM1. He sent me one to evaluate and I exchanged emails with Paul Beam, the designer. Paul made a deal with Elk instead but I did get a free ESM1 . I also have a schematic but don't recall if Paul sent me that or whether someone reverse engineered it.
Logged
This message was composed entirely from recycled letters of the alphabet using only renewable, caffeinated energy sources.
No trees, wabbits, chimps or whales died in the process.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston

scali2018

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 31
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2018, 03:36:31 AM »

I just replaced the switch with an XPD3.  Now the unit won't respond to an on command, but responds fine to off, and dimming.  Really strange.
Logged

Brian H

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 289
  • Posts: 12702
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2018, 03:39:17 AM »

What are you using to try and turn it On?
Logged

scali2018

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 31
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2018, 03:45:44 AM »

I am using the WM100.   Then i turn it on manually and can control it fine (dimmming/off).
Logged

Brian H

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 289
  • Posts: 12702
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2018, 03:50:04 AM »

I saw the schematic of the ESM1 on your web site Dave.
In the Recording PLC Signas information.
Logged

Tuicemen

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Helpful Post Rating: 265
  • Posts: 9464
  • I don't work for X10, I use it successfuly!
    • Tuicemen Software
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2018, 03:57:34 AM »

I am using the WM100.   Then i turn it on manually and can control it fine (dimmming/off).
Is the Cm15 plugged in?
if so have you tried with the Cm15 unplugged?
Is the switch configured in the wm100 App as a wall switch? I'm told it will make a difference.
if so have you tried it configured as a module?
Logged
Please Read Topic:
General Forum Etiquette
Before you post!

Find extra info @ My forum

JeffVolp

  • Community Organizer
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 107
  • Posts: 2061
    • XTB Home Page
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2018, 04:14:40 AM »

I saw the schematic of the ESM1 on your web site Dave.

Compare that with the schematic for the XTBM, which is on the jvde.us website.  I was trying to match the ESM1 price, but the parts alone cost about $80.

The XTBM and all other XTB products verify the correct number of bits AND the complimentary bit pattern before accepting a command as valid.

Jeff
Logged
X-10 automation since the BSR days

scali2018

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Helpful Post Rating: 0
  • Posts: 31
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2018, 04:32:00 AM »

I am using the WM100.   Then i turn it on manually and can control it fine (dimmming/off).
Is the Cm15 plugged in?
if so have you tried with the Cm15 unplugged?
Is the switch configured in the wm100 App as a wall switch? I'm told it will make a difference.
if so have you tried it configured as a module?

CM15 is unplugged.  I tried configuring as a module and nothing works when i do that.  Strange.
Logged

dhouston

  • Advanced Member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Helpful Post Rating: 37
  • Posts: 2487
    • davehouston.org
Re: Whole house noise filter
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2018, 04:47:42 AM »

I saw the schematic of the ESM1 on your web site Dave.
In the Recording PLC Signas information.

Well, DUH!

Had I read that I'd have recalled the source of the schematic.
Logged
This message was composed entirely from recycled letters of the alphabet using only renewable, caffeinated energy sources.
No trees, wabbits, chimps or whales died in the process.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston
Pages: 1 [2] 3
 

X10.com | About X10 | X10 Security Systems | Cameras| Package Deals
© Copyright 2014-2016 X10.com All rights reserved.