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Author Topic: Itís time to move on  (Read 1937 times)

docbell

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2018, 12:54:26 PM »

This has been a great discussion, but it leaves me feeling a bit unclear on the original question of whether "it's time to move on" from X10. I think I've asked that question seriously at least half a dozen times since I started using X10 back in 1979. Each time I was running into to a different set of problems and limitations of the hardware and protocol. Each time the answer was a different mix of resolving existing issues, re-configuring the system, and adding new types of hardware and software. I never reached the point where it was worth the trouble and expense of tearing out and replacing the part of the X10 system that was working well. As a result, I have a very "mixed" system (X10, WiFi, Z-Wave, Zigbee, and 433 Mhz). The real hurdle has been controlling the number of different bits of software needed and getting them to play well together. I suspect that a lot of the "move on" sentiment comes from a hope that there is a single (inexpensive?) hardware/software package out there that can solve everything for the foreseeable future. I have my doubts, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 02:33:52 PM by docbell »
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JeffVolp

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2018, 03:01:22 PM »

From someone who has been using X10 products since they first became available, except for the HVAC system that has its own zone controller, our entire house is automated just with X10 - even irrigation and auxiliary ventilation.  Reliability is virtually 100%, and I've been working over a decade to help others achieve the same level of reliability.  If I built a new house today, I would install X10 products again because I know how to make them work.

Jeff
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X-10 automation since the BSR days

dave w

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2018, 05:23:08 PM »

Absolute ditto. The only thing lacking in X10,  is feedback or status. And if necessary, feedback / status can be achieved at about the same cost as a Z-Wave module.
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JeffVolp

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2018, 06:01:21 PM »

The only thing lacking in X10,  is feedback or status.

The controller should know the status except in cases where devices are controlled locally.  I send "clean-up" commands at bedtime to turn off anything that had been switched on locally during the evening.  And I installed Leviton HCM06-1TW dimmer switches in those locations where the switch must send its status when controlled locally.  It also responds to the X10 Status_Request.  They are expensive, but are perhaps the best X10 switch that Leviton made.

Jeff
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X-10 automation since the BSR days

Brian H

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2018, 07:20:30 PM »

The older Insteon dimmer wall switches with an X10 address programmed into them. Also sent changes local paddle status changes and responded to Status Requests. Though they where not 100% compatible with X10 controllers that use the Standard Dim and Extended X10 commands. They used the Standard Dim and %Dim commands. Full On and Off did report as On or Off.
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JeffVolp

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2018, 07:31:50 PM »

The older Insteon dimmer wall switches with an X10 address programmed into them.

Yes, and some of the Insteon plug-in modules reported when a local load was switched on or off.  I noticed that when developing the XTBM-Pro to report the % dim level from the Pre-set dim instruction.

Jeff
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 07:33:59 PM by JeffVolp »
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X-10 automation since the BSR days

petera

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2018, 08:16:38 PM »

Joining this discussion at a late stage but I definitely think X10 still has a place in home automation. It's strength is its simplicity and I've yet to come across a system that doesn't embrace it in some shape or fashion.

I can honestly say that if I've found some form of limitation to X10 I've managed to find a workaround to it. Unless they introduce an alternative to electricity I for one will keep on using it.
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HA Dave

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2018, 10:16:05 PM »

This has been a great discussion, but it leaves me feeling a bit unclear on the original question of whether "it's time to move on" from X10...ÖÖÖ. I have a very "mixed" system (X10, WiFi, Z-Wave, Zigbee, and 433 Mhz).

The real hurdle has been controlling the number of different bits of software needed and getting them to play well together. I suspect that a lot of the "move on" sentiment comes from a hope that there is a single (inexpensive?) hardware/software package out there that can solve everything for the foreseeable future......

I think you hit that nail on the head. Lots of us have or are willing to try the newest, latest, greatest. Hence many of us have "mixed-bag setups" (me included). And... in Home Automation (like everything else)... many wish for a single, simple, solution.

The facts are.... there is no single-point-of-contact, one solution, universal fix..... for anything. Not even Home Automation.

Technology is a moving target, and so are technology based endeavors. The X10 of 1976.... was (mostly) remote controlled lighting. All this computer controlled, smart home stuff... is part of the technology that evolved around X10 users... that was then integrated into X10. And this is still happening today. Cloud computing wasn't a product of Home Automation. But Home Automation can certainly exploit (and benefit from) this technology.

And like always... new products are developed to exploit the new technologies... and products like X10 (and other protocols) adapt. The new products are NOT the "fix" and X10 is not the Home Automation panacea.

We could debate whether home automation is a lifestyle or a hobby. I think it can be either (or both)... depending on the user. But either way our automation setup can not, will not remain static. Either they malfunction and need fixes... or we feel compelled to add the neatest, coolest, newest, features and abilities to our setups. That is the nature of technology.... and technology based endeavors.

X10 works! I know that as does countless other X10 users. (ok JeffVolp has been a huge help for X10 in this regard). There is a lot of adaptation and deciding how to proceed going now among X10'ers. This may actually be the new golden age of Home Automation. I currently use X10 with my AI, Alexa devices, plus.... macros, timers, sensors, and more. There is nothing outdated about X10.
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dave w

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2018, 07:46:17 PM »

The older Insteon dimmer wall switches with an X10 address programmed into them.
Does anyone know if there is a list of all Insteon devices with X10 compatibility? I think I will call Insteon or smarthome customer service to see if they have a internal list maybe they would share. (Yeah, I know, that's pretty funny).
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Brian H

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2018, 06:25:19 AM »

I am not too sure a list is available. After Richmond Capital Partners bought Smartlabs and Smarthome over a year ago.
From what I have read. Customer service is now a third party. Shipping is also now in a new locations.

Someone posted in one of their forums. They talked to them. Officially X10 support is gone but may still be in the modules.
Though it can disappear at any moment at their discretion. The older power line only ones are reported to support X10.
My late 2014 date code Dual Band 2457D2 LampLinc {v3.5} and 2635-222 On/Off modules {v1.3} still accept an X10 address. Though the On/Off module does not respond properly to an X10 Status Request. It reports back a M13 status even though it is using an A House Code. Just tested a v1.5 On/Off module and it seemed to take an X10 address but didn't work correctly.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 06:06:53 AM by Brian H »
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HA Dave

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2018, 10:06:59 AM »

Does anyone know if there is a list of all Insteon devices with X10 compatibility?....

I wonder why you'd consider InsteonÖ as opposed to zwave or.... some other flavor of home automation product. There are so many available now. And IP based systems don't have some of the limitations as the older systems. I currently run a mix of X10 and IP based automation (including IR and the cheap wifi lightbulbs).... and they all work well together.
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x10wizard

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2018, 06:32:12 PM »

Insteon modules that support X10 (based on the ownerís manuals found on Smarthome.com)

Keypads:
2334-222 Dimmer Keypad - 8 Button - White
2334-223 Dimmer Keypad - 8 Button - Ivory
2334-225 Dimmer Keypad - 8 Button - Light Almond
2334-232 Dimmer Keypad - 6 Button - White
2334-233 Dimmer Keypad - 6 Button - Ivory
2334-235 Dimmer Keypad - 6 Button - Light Almond
2487S On/Off Keypad - 6 Button - White

Switches:
2466DW Toggle Dimmer Switch - White
2466SW Toggle On/Off Switch - White
2477S On/Off Switch - White
2477SIV On/Off Switch - Ivory
2477SLAL On/Off Switch - Light Almond
2477D Dimmer Switch - White
2477DIV Dimmer Switch - Ivory
2477DLAL Dimmer Switch - Light Almond
(note: manual for 2477D does not mention X10 support, but these still do support X10 based on bench test of recently purchased 2477D V8.2 switch)

In-Line:
2442-222 Micro Dimmer
2443-222 Micro On/Off
2444-222 Micro Open/Close
2452-222 DIN Rail Dimmer
2453-222 DIN Rail On/Off
2475DA1 In-Line Dimmer
2475SDB In-Line On/Off
2477SA2 240V 30A Relay

Outlets:
2472DWH Dimmer Outlet - White
2472DIV Dimmer Outlet - Ivory
2472DLAL Dimmer Outlet - Light Almond

Misc:
1626-10 10A Plug-In Filter
2413S Serial Modem
2413U USB Modem
2450 Plug-In Low Voltage Controller

Ownerís manuals for the following do NOT mention X10 support:
2663-222 Dual On/Off Outlet - White
2663-223 Dual On/Off Outlet - Ivory
2663-225 Dual On/Off Outlet - Light Almond
2477DH Dimmer Switch High Wattage - White

Ownerís manuals for the following specifically say X10 NOT supported:
2457D2 Plug-In Dimmer (versions prior to V3.6 do have X10 support)
2634-222 Plug-In On/Off Outdoor
2635-222 Plug-In On/Off

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Brian H

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2018, 06:08:30 AM »

Thank you for the information from the full manuals.
I hope they are still correct. In the past keeping manuals correct didn't see to be one of their priorities.
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BackAgain

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2018, 06:09:58 AM »

This has been a great discussion, but it leaves me feeling a bit unclear on the original question of whether "it's time to move on" from X10. I think I've asked that question seriously at least half a dozen times since I started using X10 back in 1979. Each time I was running into to a different set of problems and limitations of the hardware and protocol. Each time the answer was a different mix of resolving existing issues, re-configuring the system, and adding new types of hardware and software. I never reached the point where it was worth the trouble and expense of tearing out and replacing the part of the X10 system that was working well.

I did.  It's all sitting on a shelf ...  well, most of it.  I still have some light switches in walls, but they're used as physical switches only as they quit working remotely years ago.  I have a CM-15 plugged in that triggers a couple of Appliance Modules on non-critical night lights.

Other than that, I've learned the system is not reliable and cannot be trusted on things that matter beyond a casual 'hey, that's kinda cool' level.  The motion detectors and photocell modules never worked and the address limitations of 'one above' or however you care to describe it was always annoying.  The old cameras, Ninja bases and RF video receivers were horrible.

Outside lights have been converted back to photocells.  Other inside devices have been converted back to timers.

I can't even sell the shelved modules because I have no idea if they would work for anyone else or not.



 
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jwlv

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2018, 06:25:11 AM »

At one time I had several dozen X10 modules. I've since moved on to WiFi smart switches such as Wemo.
But the thing that I miss the most from the X10 is the handheld remote controller. You can control 8 devices and dimmers for all of them. Sure Wemo, Philips Hue, TP-Link have their apps that can do the same thing. But I'd rather just have a separate physical remote that I can set near my couch so I can grab it any time, just like my TV remote. I don't want to fumble through a smartphone to open an app and then wait for the app to load, and wait again for the app to find all the smart switches in the house before I can even tell it to turn something on or off. That was the beauty of X10. It can do what you want and do it quickly.
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