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Author Topic: Itís time to move on  (Read 4408 times)

Tuicemen

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2018, 08:18:58 AM »

There are several systems that operate in your home with out calling out for assistance from the web.
However more and more newer HA Protocols are using the call home approach.
Why?
Because it is easier to code, easier to debug, easier to be sure everyone is running the most up to date version and faster to do the for mentioned.
Everyone wants stuff yesterday and expects it to be plug N play no one wants to spend time debugging any more.
 I have a couple of the devices you dread though they aren't used as often as you'd think.
 It isn't because I'm afraid of it or an invasion of privacy. Heck if you post on the internet companies know more about you then you'd think! They now when your awake and when you usualy go to bed they know when your home they know your location.
These little voice boxes know this too and depending what you say to them maybe more. However they don't continuosly record as many believe. They need to hear the activation word to start recording.
These recordings can be retrieved and deleted by the end user and much easier then you'd expect.

I also wish people would stop pushing these G and Jeffbox type systems. They're only putting people out of work as the companies no longer need to hire as many people to advertise the products.
However forums are for getting info and sharing if someone asks about one of these systems I will share my experiances I don't think of that as pushing the system.

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dave w

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2018, 10:26:26 AM »

I really, really, REALLY wish people would stop pushing the G and JeffBox type systems.  I'm seeing it mentioned on more and more sites, and it's getting offensive.  G and Jeff do NOT need to be involved in our daily lives to the point of turning things on and off and adjusting our thermostats.  I'm quite capable of standing up and walking to the thermostat to adjust it if I need to. 
Actually I am looking for a WiFi thermostat for a Bryant/Carrier system. Not because I want to sit on the couch and tell Alexa to lower the homes temp by a degree. But when traveling/vacationing away from home, it gives me a way of checking homes temp, humidity, and call for heat or cool when we are almost home. But I get your point.
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BackAgain

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2018, 10:44:18 AM »

I can see the desire for that option for those who want it.  My point is, it should be just that, an option.  All of these devices should be able to work without a web connection.  There are times when the web goes down, whether it be DSL, cable, WISP, cell sourced or whatever.  When it does, it can be for several hours, sometimes days.  If you're at home and that happens, where are you?  Can you turn things on or off, or adjust things, view cameras, etc?  With an inhouse system like AHP, you can.

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dave w

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #93 on: August 25, 2018, 12:15:29 PM »

I can see the desire for that option for those who want it.  My point is, it should be just that, an option.  All of these devices should be able to work without a web connection.  There are times when the web goes down, whether it be DSL, cable, WISP, cell sourced or whatever.  When it does, it can be for several hours, sometimes days.  If you're at home and that happens, where are you?  Can you turn things on or off, or adjust things, view cameras, etc?  With an inhouse system like AHP, you can.
Yep. Agree 100% I will not have a total cloud based system. All these users jumping on the cloud based home automation will experience loss of control some day. Yesterday our cable was down half a day due to a cut fiber cable.  Maybe some day when 5G is as ubiquitous as cellular currently is, cloud automation might be something could dip my toe in.
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BackAgain

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #94 on: August 25, 2018, 01:35:19 PM »

^^  There's another angle too.  At least with DSL, the Telcos involved are regulated by state and federal agencies and are required to restore service as quickly as possible.  Some of the others like WISPs and cable compnies may not be, so it may be even longer.  I've seen WISPs just suddenly dry up and cease service with no notice.  One around here got so bad, they could be down for weeks at a time and stopped taking new customers.

And what about those in areas where the ONLY option is satellite?  You lose service completely on cloudy days even if they don't get to the level of storms.  And it doesn't even have to be over you.  It can be over the NOC while you have clear skies and Sun or stars.  I know because I had StarBand for a while.  It would go out several times a week for no real reason.

I've even seen situations where DirecTV and/or DishTV would go out nationwide because of storms over the NOC, so it's not a weakness of any satellite ISP, it's just the nature of the beast.

A system capable of operating fully inhouse without the need to phone home would be unaffected except for the remote operations if one was away and wanted to check on things.

I would like to have the inhouse capabilities via a phone or computer, but not with a system that needs outside access.  AHP had that, but simple was not reliable in my experience.  I should say 'is not reliable' since I still have it installed and connected to the CM15 with 3 or 4 modules in close proximity.





« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 01:39:12 PM by BackAgain »
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Tuicemen

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2018, 01:46:11 PM »

I can see the desire for that option for those who want it.  My point is, it should be just that, an option.  All of these devices should be able to work without a web connection.  There are times when the web goes down, whether it be DSL, cable, WISP, cell sourced or whatever.  When it does, it can be for several hours, sometimes days.  If you're at home and that happens, where are you?  Can you turn things on or off, or adjust things, view cameras, etc?  With an inhouse system like AHP, you can.
I don't think anyone on this forum is reliant totally 100% on the cloud for automation. At least not those that were around prior to X10WTI going belly up. We've all seen what happens when the servers go down and not just X10s. Many of these cloud based devices have experianced server issues.
Many of these smart cloud based devices are starting to add local control but not after sometimes years of users complaining about it.

The one nice thing about the WM100 module is although I may not be able to configure it when the internet is down at least my timers work and that's basicaly all I use it for. I have x10 remotes or a flavor of PC software for local control.
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beelocks

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2018, 04:18:06 PM »

I would like to have the inhouse capabilities via a phone or computer, but not with a system that needs outside access. 

Insteon with an ISY controller does almost exactly that. I can also access most stuff from outside in real life because I have an Insteon hub scabbed into the system.
Wired switches, plug-in modules, thermostats (with humidity sensing for bathroom fans), cameras, &c. Some of it is even X10 semi-compatible although I have very little X10 left in my system.
The real issue is the cost compared to 'cloud' based stuff.
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HA Dave

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #97 on: August 25, 2018, 10:11:35 PM »

ÖÖ I also wish people would stop pushing these G and Jeffbox type systems. They're only putting people out of work as the companies no longer need to hire as many people to advertise the products.....

I believe....  "They're putting people out of work" was actually inscribed on the Luddite battle flag. rofl  After all murdering factory owners... was justified... if they were robbing people of their living. But it wasn't true then... or now.

Amazon, Google, and the [evil] Internet.... are NOT putting people out of work, or hurting any economy. The USA economy... by every conventual measurement has never been better (and we bought 80% of the worlds supply of Echo's). Technological improvements have ALWAYS reduced and/or relieved poverty. Embracing the new technological advancements (even the scary ones) is essential to a prosperous future.   
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 10:36:32 PM by HA Dave »
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brobin

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #98 on: August 26, 2018, 01:07:55 PM »

I agree that relying on cloud based services can be iffy at best. We have half a dozen Dots throughout the house that can control everything from motorized sliding doors to irrigation and lights.  But that's for convenience only - when Irma hit us directly almost a year ago our power was out for nine days and cable for a few more after that.  We have a 48kw generator so we had lights, AC, and TV. The Stargate and Lutron ran their schedules, the AC operated as programmed and we could even watch TV via an old school antenna mounted in the attic. So the lack of cloud based services only took away some convenience but didn't affect "household operations" one bit.  Every item that Alexa can operate can also be operated with local control be it an IR/RF remote, light switch, t-stat or door knob.  I don't buy products that are Wifi only controlled.  The risk with wifi only is not just the cable being cut but also a router failure as happened to me earlier this month right after we left on a 3 week trip.
 As far as privacy goes, I'm not really concerned about what Jeff's minions might hear even if they were listening. The tests I've done so far don't show that they are.  Remember, Alexa & GH weren't built specifically for HA but for providing info, entertainment & shopping so the development and deployment are spread over much broader base of users than the still limited HA market. 
 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 07:16:54 PM by brobin »
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Tuicemen

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #99 on: August 26, 2018, 03:15:07 PM »

  Remember, Alexa & GH weren't built specifically for HA but for proving info, entertainment & shopping so the development and deployment are spread over much broader base of users than the still limited HA market. 
 
Visiting any of the many Alexa discussion groups or forums confirms that.
Most Alexa questions are about music, shopping, reminders, calling & messaging.
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bkenobi

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2018, 10:57:54 AM »

There are many options in thermostats that do both function as a standard thermostat and allow HA IN HOUSE (no cloud).  I wanted to install the Honeywell WiFi thermostat similar to the one I currently have, but it was apparently an old discontinued model within a year.  They replaced it with another newer version (nicer screen, etc), but it won't work with my specific furnace installation.  There are several ZWave thermostats as well.

My intention was to have them set up like a normal programmable 7-day thermostat.  I was going to use the WiFi to override based on sensors around the house that were controlled by my HA system (e.g., kick heat on early if temp dropped below heat pump shutoff temp so I could use a cheaper heat source, keep the temperature set point slightly lower if the HP was locked out, etc).  I would not consider using a unit where ALL the logic was remote to the home.  I recall issues with the NEST a few years ago where the unit lost connectivity and froze people's homes (I forget the details).

HA Dave

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Re: It’s time to move on
« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2018, 07:15:09 PM »

Most Alexa questions are about music, shopping, reminders, calling & messaging.

My Dad had a Zenith Space Command remote.... they clicked. The clicking sound was the signal that caused the TV to rotate (an electric motor actually rotated) the tuner to the next designated channel (we only had 3).

LOTS have changed in the area of Home Automation over the years. Push-button lighting was really cool in the 1970's. But Home Automation changed dramatically.
People expect AI.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 11:05:02 PM by HA Dave »
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dave w

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2018, 09:01:33 PM »

My Dad had a Zenith Space Command remote.... they clicked.
Yeah, My parents had one also. When you pushed the button a tiny hammer whacked a metal cylinder that acted like a tuning fork making an ultrasonic tone. The different frequencies queued channel up, channel down, Off-On, and mute. We had four channels. The three networks and an independent station out of Bloomington. Sometimes I wish I was back there watching Gun Smoke and Have Gun Will Travel.  :)%
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brobin

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2018, 09:31:21 PM »

My Dad had a Zenith Space Command remote.... they clicked.
Sometimes I wish I was back there watching Gun Smoke and Have Gun Will Travel.  :)%

Or Highway Patrol... brought to you by Ballantine Beer.

The first X10 remotes were ultrasonic too with all 16 unit codes. They run (notice I didn't use past tense) on a 9V battery.  I still have some that work.  I used to be able to hear them if I held them close to my ear but now the tinnitus is too loud to be able to do that.
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HA Dave

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Re: Itís time to move on
« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2018, 10:56:16 PM »

Ö Yeah, My parents had one also...ÖÖÖ. Sometimes I wish I was back there watching Gun Smoke and Have Gun Will Travel.  :)%

Or Highway Patrol... brought to you by Ballantine Beer.

I think a LOT of us.... share similar memories. But Gun Smoke... is still on TV (Nick). Have gun will travel, as well as Highway PatrolÖ. can still be viewed as they were originally shown (B&W at 4:3 format)Ö. if you stream through YouTube. Most streaming devices allow YouTube streaming (even just a $39 Pi will do). And BTW... the Ballantine Beer Commercials are there too. 

But I am far from ready to write my memoirs... or put a rocking chair on the front porch... or even build a front porch. There are lots of impressive new technologies out there today.... and MUCH more promised tomorrow. And I plan of staying clear-headed and on top of things for some time yet to come. I loved my old BVC (SAPI5 Voice recognition) controlled set-up. But AI voice, macro, Pi, and cloud control... are all awesome.

P.S. from time-to-time..... I watch an old StarTrek TV shows on the 110 inch theater screen.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 11:02:17 PM by HA Dave »
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