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Author Topic: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs  (Read 604 times)

JeffVolp

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2018, 08:56:51 PM »

I've seen those widgets made to help dimmers work with LED lights.  Looking at the bump on the shrink sleeving, I suspect they are nothing more than high a value resistor to bleed off leakage current.

I envision an active circuit that behaves more like an incandescent filament when the voltage across it is low, and then turns off each half cycle when the current reaches a threshold that would indicate the dimmer switch triac has turned on.  Since it would only be conducting when there is little voltage across it, it should have relatively low dissipation.  In production volume it could probably be produced for under $10.

Jeff
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Brian H

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2018, 01:50:49 AM »

I tried a few resistors to try and simulate the load widget.
WS12A about the age of their modules. Maybe SmartHome forums. Radio Shack was mentioned so not the new Preset Dim nd soft start.
Tried 12.2K. Didn't have the 10K in a high enough wattage value. I saw in one of the widgets spec sheets. Failed miserable. Sill glowed with an assortment of dimmable test LED bulbs I have or no X10 power line commands worked.
4.7K no glow but also no power line controls.
4W night light. LED glowed, some no On but if On would go Off.
7W night light no LED glow, no power line controls.
This is with an outlet close to the breaker box and ~9.5 Volts X10 signal from the XTB-IIR.
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JeffVolp

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2018, 05:01:15 AM »

I'm surprised that a 7W nightlight didn't allow X10 control - at least switching from off to on.  Usually the problem is turning off because the LED bulb is generating enough noise to block the X10 switch from decoding the command.

Jeff
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x10wizard

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2018, 05:02:10 AM »

The following current production Insteon devices still support X10 and also work well with dimmable LED bulbs, but they do require a neutral wire:
Insteon 2334-222 Dimmer Keypad 8-Button Revision 8.0
Insteon 2334-232 Dimmer Keypad 6-Button Revision 8.0
Insteon 2477D Dimmer Switch Revision 8.2
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Brian H

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2018, 05:56:13 AM »

The following current production Insteon devices still support X10 and also work well with dimmable LED bulbs, but they do require a neutral wire:
Insteon 2334-222 Dimmer Keypad 8-Button Revision 8.0
Insteon 2334-232 Dimmer Keypad 6-Button Revision 8.0
Insteon 2477D Dimmer Switch Revision 8.2

Do you know about the 2466 relay and dimmer type ToggleLinc? I believe they do.
I believe the users X10 switches are the toggle button style. X10Pro PLM01
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dave w

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2018, 06:24:29 AM »

I have an older house which only has 2 wires so there's no "neutral" wire available.

Assuming you mean 'ground', you have a major safety issue in a bathroom. 
Pretty sure Travasaurus is talking about a two wire switch loop with no neutral in the switch box.
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dave w

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2018, 06:41:56 AM »

I'm surprised that a 7W nightlight didn't allow X10 control - at least switching from off to on. 
Yeah, me too. I think there is some dependence on the LED bulb. Maybe I have just been lucky with my selection of bulbs.
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Brian H

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2018, 06:53:37 AM »

That is the way I read the question.
Two wire switch loop and no neutral in the switch box.
My house is all switch loops, two wire Romex with no ground wire in it.
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x10wizard

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2018, 07:25:59 AM »

Is Travasaurus really certain there isn't a pair of white wires (neutrals) tied together in the back of the switch box?  Many times there is a neutral at the switch box but the inexperienced DIY homeowner (who has no business doing his own wiring anyway) just doesn't realize it because there wasn't a neutral wire connected to the original switch.

What's the big deal with adding a wire from the fixture to the switch to get neutral at the switch?  A good electrician should be able to fish a wire with no or minimal damage to the plaster or drywall.

I have no first hand knowledge whether or not the Insteon 2466S On/Off Switch (Toggle) or the Insteon 2466D Dimmer Switch (Toggle) still support X10.  But I would not recommend them anyway because they are not Dual-Band, they do not have the improved 100-277V power circuitry, and according to many reviewers these are thus more prone to failure from power surges.

Why does a bathroom vanity light fixture need to be X10 controlled?  Lutron makes very good (non-X10) LED dimmers in both the toggle and Decora style that do not require a neutral.   
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dave w

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2018, 07:42:58 AM »

Why does a bathroom vanity light fixture need to be X10 controlled? 
Because it is there.
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Brian H

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2018, 08:08:24 AM »

He is using X10. So Dual Band will not matter. As it is Insteon only.

My house is about the same age as he indicated, maybe in his Smarthome Forum posts, and I have no white neutrals in any of my switch boxes.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:10:06 AM by Brian H »
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dave w

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2018, 01:09:54 PM »

Is Travasaurus really certain there isn't a pair of white wires (neutrals) tied together in the back of the switch box?  Many times there is a neutral at the switch box but the inexperienced DIY homeowner .
PM him and ask him.
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x10wizard

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2018, 09:04:06 PM »

Of course Dual-Band is only relevant to Insteon functionality.  And of course Travasaurus is only using X10 (I did read the entire thread before posting my comments).

The Dual-Band circuitry and the improved 100-277V power circuitry go hand-in-hand, as both features were implemented (at the same time) as an improvement to many of the Insteon modules several years ago.

My point in not recommending the 2466S and the 2466D is that because these are older designs, without the Dual-Band/power circuitry improvement, the 2466S and 2466D are far more prone to failure from power surges than the newer generation of Insteon devices.
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dave w

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2018, 10:26:25 AM »

Of course Dual-Band is only relevant to Insteon functionality.  And of course Travasaurus is only using X10 (I did read the entire thread before posting my comments).

The Dual-Band circuitry and the improved 100-277V power circuitry go hand-in-hand, as both features were implemented (at the same time) as an improvement to many of the Insteon modules several years ago.

My point in not recommending the 2466S and the 2466D is that because these are older designs, without the Dual-Band/power circuitry improvement, the 2466S and 2466D are far more prone to failure from power surges than the newer generation of Insteon devices.
Does any Insteon Dual Band switches with the new and improved power supply circuity, support X10?
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Brian H

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2018, 10:48:25 AM »

Officially the 2477D, 2477S 100-277VAC 50/60Hz switches. Do not support X10. Not listed in the specification pages.
The 2466S/D power line only also do not list X10 support.

I have seen posts indicating that X10 support is not listed but still maybe supported.
Since it is not listed. They can drop it at anytime they decide to.
Now that Smarthome-Smarlabs are owned by Richmond Capital Partners. They maybe taking a different path.

Not all of the updated modules to Dual Band are reliable.
The 2413S, 2413U PLM, both older and present HUB. Have switching supplies in them, but someone picked poor quality capacitors for the supply. They have a known issue with getting maybe two years and a few months old. Then stop working.
Out of the two year warranty by a few months.  ::)

There is a very long thread on the UDI forums. On repairing them with quality capacitors. They say they have corrected it but I don't know anyone that has had one long enough to test the time period before belly up.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 11:17:32 AM by Brian H »
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