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Author Topic: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs  (Read 959 times)

dave w

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2018, 12:09:54 PM »

I have seen posts indicating that X10 support is not listed but still maybe supported.
FWIW
When I bought the Insteon I/O Links, I emailed Smarthome about X10 compatibility.
The answer was: on the site catalog pages look to see if the "Owner's Manual" is available as a pdf, and open it and look for X10 programming instructions. If present in the manual, the module is old and still supports X10.

I don't think any of the Dual Band stuff supports X10.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 12:11:29 PM by dave w »
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x10wizard

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2018, 12:37:20 PM »

As I posted 2 days ago in this same thread, the following current production Dual-Band Insteon devices still support X10 and also work well with dimmable LED bulbs, but they do require a neutral wire:
Insteon 2334-222 Dimmer Keypad 8-Button Dual-Band Revision 8.0
Insteon 2334-232 Dimmer Keypad 6-Button Dual-Band Revision 8.0
Insteon 2477D Dimmer Switch Dual-Band Revision 8.2

I just recently purchased some 2477D Dimmer Switches Dual-Band Rev 8.2 from Smarthome to keep as spares, and I did a bench test to verify that it still supports X10 (contrary to what it says in the latest 2477D manual).

I also recently purchased some 2334-222 and 2334-232 Dimmer Keypads Dual-Band Rev 8.0 from Smarthome to keep as spares, and I did bench tests to verify that these both still support X10 (the manual for these is correct in that it still refers to support for X10).

Brian H is right in that Insteon has said they may remove X10 support sometime in the future.  Sean (a senior tech manager at Insteon) has stated, in emails to me about this very subject, that Insteon will make an announcement ahead of time if they decide to remove X10 support.

Brian H is also right about the 2413 modules.  Time will tell if the latest versions hold up better.



 
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x10wizard

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2018, 12:55:35 PM »

You can't always rely on what the tech support people at Smarthome tell you.  They sometimes get it wrong.

Some of the Dual-Band "stuff" DOES in fact support X10. 
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dave w

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2018, 01:01:09 PM »

All good to know, but now it is even more risky figuring out if any of the newer Insteon stuff is still compatible. This post would be good as a stickie.
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Brian H

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2018, 01:51:17 PM »

Like my Dual Band 2457D2 LampLinc code:4413 and 2635-222 On/Off module Code:1714 both accept an X10 address.
Can't say about the presently being sold ones. Mine are not brand new.

Same for the 2413S PLM X10 not listed in the sales literature but still does. Mine is a hardware 2.4. I see they now have increased the Insteon Link Database to 2000 from the 1000 in the earlier hardware. So I can't say if X10 is still supported.
I suspect they are now 2.5 or maybe higher.

The 2450 I/OLinc is an older design. I suspect it will support X10 until they replace it with a Dual Band Model. They did change the main filter capacitors value and voltage. In my 2.3 over the 1.0 and again over 1.8
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Travasaurus

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X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2018, 11:16:53 PM »

I kind of lost track of this Forum as I was focusing on the SmartHome one instead.  I have since decided to bite the bullet and have resigned myself to getting a "neutral" wire installed so I can move on down the road.  As such, the only genuine X-10 switch that's been "guaranteed" to work with dimmable LED bulbs is the XPDI3 Dimmer, 120 VAC 500W Inductive Wall Switch.  Now I'm just looking for someone who's had some practical experience with this one so I'll know I'm not just getting a bunch of hyped-up nonsense. If the thing has a money-back guarantee then that's even better.  This way I don't have to fret over various Insteon devices' "incompatibility" with my X-10 remote controls.  Plus this is just a single-switch installation, not a 2-way setup.  Any input from the Experts here would be more than welcome (especially before I have to pay my electrician a small fortune to install the neutral line).  Thanks and standing by...
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Brian H

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2018, 01:33:36 AM »

You may want to use the Advanced Search function here. For the key word XPDI3. I found around 95 posts with XPDI3 in them. That may give you some information along with users exact information.

Due to electronics designs. You may still find some combinations of bulb and XPDI3 working fine and others maybe less than 100% compatible. Manufacturers use to have tested with lists.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 01:45:58 AM by Brian H »
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x10wizard

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2018, 08:20:48 AM »

To review:

You have a bathroom vanity light fixture with 3 light bulb sockets,
and the neutral wire is at the fixture, not at the switch.

You were using an X10 PLW01 wall switch with incandescent bulbs,
controlled by an X10 HR12A remote.

Then you changed to MaxLite G25 LED dimmable 10W (100W equivalent) bulbs,
and now the X10 PLW01 wall switch doesnít work with the LED bulbs.

So now you are having an electrician run a new wire to get neutral at the switch,
and want to know if the X10 XPDI3 dimmer switch will work.

Specs for the XPDI3 say minimum 40W, and since you only have 30W, THIS IS LIKELY A PROBLEM.  The XPDI3 is not a true rocker, it is a pushbutton dimmer switch with a paddle that overlays a single pushbutton hidden beneath the paddle.  The XPDI3 is a receiver only Ö it responds to X10 commands and controls the connected load, but it does not transmit X10 signals when the paddle is pressed.

A better choice is the Insteon 2477D Dimmer Switch.   The current production version, Revision 8.2, still supports X10, and it even supports X10 Scenes.   It is a true rocker dimmer switch.  It has LEDs to indicate the level of brightness of the load.  It is both an X10 receiver and an X10 transmitter.  It can be set to have any default level of load brightness, and any ramp rate.

Furthermore, since you are using an HR12A remote, with the 2477Dís X10 Scene capability, you could have different buttons on the remote correspond to different levels of brightness.   For example, using an ďAĒ housecode remote, you could have button 1 (A1) correspond to full brightness, button 2 (A2) correspond to 70% brightness, and button 3 (A3) correspond to 20% brightness.  You will need an X10 Maxi-Controller (or equivalent controller) to set up the X10 addresses in the 2477D.

I have a 2477D Rev 7.8, wired to a fixture with 3 Cree 4Flow LED dimmable 6W (40W equivalent) bulbs.  Iím using the 2477D in X10 mode only (not Insteon mode), and I also have an X10 Scene address set in it.   It works perfectly.
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dave w

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2018, 11:37:01 AM »

If the thing has a money-back guarantee then that's even better. 
That probably isn't gonna happen. Too much variation in what various manufacturers call "Dimmable". "Dimmable" on an old phase shift dimmer might not be dimmable on a X10 dimmer.  Neutral line will help but no guarantee.
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rufunky

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2018, 10:00:11 PM »


I don't believe X10 makes a Trailing Edge dimmer wall switch.


Does this mean they use leading edge for all x10 dimmers? I was always curious about this.
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dhouston

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2018, 06:33:37 AM »

Due to electronics designs. You may still find some combinations of bulb and XPDI3 working fine and others maybe less than 100% compatible. Manufacturers use to have tested with lists.
And, incandescents were incandescents while LEDs with the same P/N might behave differently because of differences in design from year to year.
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Travasaurus

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X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2018, 05:11:09 PM »

As the late, great Paul Harvey used to say, "And now for the Rest of the Story":  I went ahead, bit the bullet and hired a Master Electrician and now $200 later I have 2 perfectly-working X-10 WS13A (non-dimmable) switches in my bedroom and office and 1 Insteon 2477D (dimmable) switch in my bathroom, all of which work "as advertised" with all my old X-10 remote control units.  The good news is (in the latter case) that my bathroom ghetto blaster works great with no interference whatsoever (the X-10 XPDI3 switch I briefly tried made it unlistenable on the AM band) and the bad news is that it will not dim the LED bulbs down very far at all, nowhere near what it will the incandescent ones, but that's a trade-off I suppose I can live with.  For whatever "electrical" reason the neutral wire is apparently a hard & fast requirement for these particular switches when used with LED bulbs, I can now testify to that.  It's been a long and frustrating road and I'm glad I've finally reached the end, albeit months later.
Just 1 more question though if I may, looking down the way; it's a pretty sure bet that the X-10 WS13A switches will always work with my current X-10 remotes but I'm a little worried about the Insteon 2477D switch - from some comments made in the Forum it looks like Insteon could decide to "upgrade" the design at any time and I might lose compatibility with my X-10 remote controls.  Might it be prudent to buy an extra 2477D switch now to avoid that possibility sometime in the coming days, or is it likely they will stay with the same technology for the foreseeable future?  I would be back to "Square 1" if I lost remote compatibility with my control units.
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x10wizard

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2018, 07:16:28 PM »

Glad you finally got everything working.  Some LEDs dim better than others.  Just wondering, did you set up the 2477D local on-level and local ramp rate?  Did you set up any X10 scenes (controllable from your palmpad remotes) in the 2477D for different brightness levels? 

You should only buy a spare 2477D if you are concerned that yours may eventually fail, and if you think by that time Insteon will have removed X10 from their products.

The 2477D is now a very reliable dimmer switch, as Insteon has made many many many many many revisions to it over the past 10+ years.  No one knows for sure if or when Insteon will remove X10 from future production.  Could be tomorrow, could be never in your lifetime.

I would not recommend buying a spare, since you only have the one 2477D, unless you think it is that critical to your lighting needs.  There is almost always a workaround solution to replacing a module that has failed or has become obsolete.
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brobin

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2018, 04:20:24 PM »

This just in!  It may be time to stock up on the current model.
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Brian H

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Re: X-10 Problems With LED Bulbs
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2018, 06:32:44 PM »

Thanks for the information. I have not seen it yet on any Smarthome or Insteon company site yet.
Looks like all they did was update the paddle trim and maybe the paddle assembly. To eliminate all the unused bar graph LED pipe holes. That are not used in the On/Off switch style switch. My old power line only 2476S has the paddle trim with the light pipe holes with no LEDs behind them.

I find it interesting you can purchase the white paddle kit with the old style light pipes and paddle. For an additional cost.  ::)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 06:51:44 PM by Brian H »
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