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Author Topic: What is the definition of AI here?  (Read 1427 times)

brobin

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2019, 02:13:39 PM »

For me Alexa was just a verbal PalmPad.  And we had to use only the words it understood.  Not much AI required for that...

Jeff
A couple of months ago I learned that you can customize the words by setting up a "Routine" with whatever words you like. While a routine can set off multiple commands I used one so that instead of saying "turn off garage door" to close it, I can now say "close garage door" which sends the "turn off" command to my Pi Alexa Hub. I did the same thing for some shades and motorized sliding doors.
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bkenobi

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2019, 02:30:30 PM »

Nest thermostats are supposed to be learning in which case they should be considered AI to some degree.  You train it by setting temps at different times and days and it learns what you typically do and mimics it.  When you give a machine a bunch of conditions and your desired response to them, learning through a neural network can occur and that is typically considered AI.  I've watched some youtube stuff where random actions that are weeded out to get a desired final result are considered AI...yeah, not really.  But neural network approaches certainly appear to be pretty legit to me.  They are not perfect, but for the purposes of HA (Nest thermostats in this case), it should get you everything you would do in your daily routine pretty quickly.  It won't be able to automatically figure out you are on vacation I assume.  Then again, if the internet goes out you may not have a functioning thermostat (unless there is local logic stored these days).  I personally have never found a problem with my 7 day programmable unit.  Since Nest isn't compatible with my furnace, it's not an option anyway.

brobin

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2019, 02:43:08 PM »

Because we traveled a lot I wanted the house to automatically switch to vacation mode if I forgot to set it manually. Since the Stargate is connected to the alarm system and knows when it's armed I've set an event that, in essence, says, "IF time is 2AM and alarm-away is armed THEN set vacation flag."  I have a number of events, including t-stats, with vacation flag conditionals.  When I set this up many years ago, I chose the 2AM time since it's rare that we'd be out till then.  Nowadays I could probably safely set that to 10PM.  rofl
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racerfern

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2019, 02:49:55 PM »

Speaking of t'stats, my Honeywell adapts to weather conditions so as not to overshoot when warming things up in the morning. It does it internally without needing the cloud although it does access the cloud for other things. As long as the temps are reasonably close day to day, it adjusts just fine. But when it's 25 for almost a week and suddenly 45 the next morning the t'stat doesn't know what to do, so it just modifies its routine moving forward. However, it can't do anything on that particular day. That would be a primitive AI.

I asked Honeywell to allow their t'stat to read the outside temp so it could react to changes on a daily basis. They said it wasn't built to do that. I said it should have been. Sigh...

So what do I use Google home for besides HA? I occasionally ask for definitions, ask about people, ask it to play some music.

I would like to ask when the next high tide is, but Google can't help with that.

@brobin-
Speaking of garage doors, I setup Google and Homeseer so I can say Close the Garage door or Open the Garage door. Great, but when I say Open the Garage door, Google Home or google on my phone says "Sure, turning on the garage door" or OK, turning off the garage door. I guess my AI capabilities need more learning.
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James G

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2019, 03:24:10 PM »

Dave, I consider humans natural and electronic devices artificial. I no longer wish to discuss what is meant by AI as there are too many conflicts. Each of us have different definitions. Perhaps a separate thread could be started?
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brobin

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2019, 03:34:09 PM »

Speaking of t'stats, my Honeywell adapts to weather conditions so as not to overshoot when warming things up in the morning. It does it internally without needing the cloud although it does access the cloud for other things. As long as the temps are reasonably close day to day, it adjusts just fine. But when it's 25 for almost a week and suddenly 45 the next morning the t'stat doesn't know what to do, so it just modifies its routine moving forward. However, it can't do anything on that particular day. That would be a primitive AI.

I asked Honeywell to allow their t'stat to read the outside temp so it could react to changes on a daily basis. They said it wasn't built to do that. I said it should have been. Sigh...

So what do I use Google home for besides HA? I occasionally ask for definitions, ask about people, ask it to play some music.

I would like to ask when the next high tide is, but Google can't help with that.

@brobin-
Speaking of garage doors, I setup Google and Homeseer so I can say Close the Garage door or Open the Garage door. Great, but when I say Open the Garage door, Google Home or google on my phone says "Sure, turning on the garage door" or OK, turning off the garage door. I guess my AI capabilities need more learning.

If I ask Alexa about high tides it'll tell me both high tides for the day.
Since the garage doors use the same RF signal for both opening and closing, I put an alarm contact on the door so the Stargate knows if it's open or closed. It'll only execute the close command if it's open and vice versa.
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racerfern

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2019, 04:55:23 PM »

Quote
If I ask Alexa about high tides it'll tell me both high tides for the day.
Since the garage doors use the same RF signal for both opening and closing, I put an alarm contact on the door so the Stargate knows if it's open or closed. It'll only execute the close command if it's open and vice versa.

Alexa knows tides, cool!

I understand about the garage door, my point was if the garage door is open and I tell Google to open the garage door, it says, ok. It should day the garage door is already open. Homeseer knows if the garage door is open or closed because of a tilt sensor on the garage door that reports back. I could write an event but if I just used Google to open the door, you would think it knows that it just opened the door and would say so.

The problem is we have two technologies almost working together. When Alexa/Google check with the controlling software HG/Homeseer/Smartthings/etc. before saying something or executing a command then that's AI. Make a decision based on a question, not a statement.
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bkenobi

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2019, 05:49:23 PM »

My Honeywell tstat knows the outside temperature and uses it for controlling things.  Since I have a heat pump it has to keep track of outside temps in case it gets too cold.  Have to lock out most heat pumps at a certain temp to avoid damaging things.  Mine becomes a block of ice at ~25F but some are higher or lower.

racerfern

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2019, 06:09:31 PM »

Heat pumps are another animal for sure. I know on hot water systems like mine there is some reset that can be set so the water going through the radiators is hotter or no so hot based on an outside temp reading. You are essentially resetting the furnace. Sorry, don't remember the technical verbiage.

It shouldn't take much effort to build an outside temp sensor into the loop and use it for some heat prediction needs. Some Honeywells have the connection point IIRC but do nothing with it other than display the outside temp.
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HA Dave

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2019, 09:34:19 PM »

I'd be happy if Alexa could figure out that if I say "turn off kitchen" it would know that I mean the kitchen in the same house the Alexa device is in! But nope, not enough AI for that. Someone please prove me wrong on that - I'd love to have that!

I believe.... You might be able to set a command to be [echo] device specific. So that only ONE exact Echo would run the "Kitchen Routine".  Or... you might want to try adding a word to the kitchen routine like...... "this" kitchen.

Or... if you're  like Tuicemen (with a City home, and an out-of-town place... with both automated) this might be an excellent opportunity to use geofencing. So the commands given.... would depend on the location of you phone.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 11:24:23 AM by HA Dave »
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HA Dave

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2019, 09:40:23 PM »

Dave, I consider humans natural and electronic devices artificial. . Each of us have different definitions. Perhaps a separate thread could be started?

Yeah.... like any of us here are experts in all nations use of the English language? I am certainly NOT. I depend on the experts to provide definitions. Maybe... it's just too hard for most people to do even brief internet searches to learn current technology terms. Or most likely.... people will do anything to protect their preconceived ideas. Paradigms are of real value to their owners. People guard them like gold.   
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HA Dave

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2019, 09:44:23 PM »

For me Alexa was just a verbal PalmPad.  And we had to use only the words it understood.  Not much AI required for that...
Jeff

A LOT of people feel that way Jeff. I even posted as much here:

....... The thing is.... Alexa is a digital assistance. AI, and Home Automation at the current highest level.. If you're an old PalmPad-button-pusher... like almost everyone of us here is (myself included)…. yeah Alexa can push the buttons for you by voice command too. And if "lighting control" is what you think "home Automation" is... if that is as far as you can imagine HA to be... then Alexa is a voice controlled button pusher. PERIOD.

For many... actually most here. That's it. That's as far as they can comprehend.... and they can't see any reason to use the Internet to push a PalmPad button.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 10:24:13 PM by HA Dave »
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HA Dave

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2019, 09:53:07 PM »

Speaking of t'stats, my Honeywell adapts to weather conditions so as not to overshoot when warming things up in the morning. It does it internally without needing the cloud although it does access the cloud for other things. As long as the temps are reasonably close day to day, it adjusts just fine. But when it's 25 for almost a week and suddenly 45 the next morning the t'stat doesn't know what to do, so it just modifies its routine moving forward. However, it can't do anything on that particular day. That would be a primitive AI.

My Nest thermostat uses the local temp as found on the web.... to predict the time it will take to heat or cool my home from a pre-set safe level. So when no one is home... based on a built-in motion sensor and confirmed by phone locations.... the Nest will allow indoor temps to rise/fall to pre-set safe limits... then attempt to recover before we arrive home (based on phone location). It does a fair job.
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HA Dave

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2019, 10:21:17 PM »

...... my point was if the garage door is open and I tell Google to open the garage door, it says, ok. It should day the garage door is already open.........
you would think it knows that it just opened the door and would say so.

I know a lady who can NOT hear or speak... but she is really intelligent. But conversationally..... she lacks a lot. You can say the same about Alexa. Alexa has awesome speech recognition... but conversationally..... she lacks a lot. I understand Google does a better job with conversation.

But then Alexa's voice.... that's a creation like none other. And although few seem to noticed... her voice and the way she expresses things continues to learn from the reactions of the over 60 millions users. And BTW... Alexa does have a slight accent. Her voice... is part of a learning program. Who knows.... someday she may add "eh" at the end of her sentences. 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 11:16:45 AM by HA Dave »
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James G

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Re: What is the definition of AI here?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2019, 08:14:58 AM »

Would it be possible to unlock the "Is there any replacement for the old Plato controller system?" thread since it is fairly new?
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