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Author Topic: Midnight Commander  (Read 768 times)

Tuicemen

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Midnight Commander
« on: January 12, 2020, 12:11:03 PM »

Many newbies to the PiX10Hub or even Linux in general don't like the command line interface.
Using a mouse to eliminated having to type in locations, edit ,copy, move, delete Ö would be awesome right?
Actually even old timers like me prefere that. ;) And that's why many users shy away from the PiX10Hub or even using a Pi for anything.
Well I've found just the ticket! :)% Midnight Commander is designed for the Linux newbie.
I just played with this for a few mins and I'm hooked.
I'll be including this in the next build of the PiX10Hub and have it load automatic.
This allows you to navigate the file system via SHH (PuTTy) with a mouse & or keyboard arrow keys.
For those that wish to test this cool find out the install is simple.
1: Open a shh session and once logged in type:
Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get install mc2: The system will ask you if you wish to proceed type y
3: Once done type
Code: [Select]
mc and Midnight Commander will load

Although you can get help with a simple mouse click you can find documentation here:
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch01.en.html#_midnight_commander_mc
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 09:00:07 AM by Tuicemen »
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petera

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2020, 02:39:51 PM »

How did all these so called noobs cope back in the days of MS DOS. I cannot for the life of me see why those commands would be seen as any less cryptic than their Linux counterparts today. I imagine the majority of users here have used the Command Prompt and created a Batch File or two in their day. If youíre going to introduce any further overhead you may as well include Pixel the RPI GUI into the equation.

Raspbian was created to cater for children learning about the computing world. This is all about users lack of desire to bother learning or researching the product when you are handing it all to them. Thereís no motivation for anyone to get off their ass and contribute as a result. I did make an effort at the beginning thinking that it would encourage others but Iím afraid it looks like thatís not going to happen anytime soon.



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Tuicemen

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2020, 03:29:06 PM »

Many users actually shied away from dos and/or never even looked a PC until windows came out.
Midnight commander doesn't stop users from learning Linux (which you seem to push so hard for) it makes navigation of the OS much easier.
If you're going to introduce any further overhead you may as well include Pixel the RPI GUI into the equation.
now that's just silly ::) :'

Quote
This is all about users lack of desire to bother learning or researching the product when you are handing it all to them. There's no motivation for anyone to get off their ass and contribute as a result.
I hope your wrong. This proves to users playing in the CLI isn't as scary as they may think.
If you took the time to look at this, you'd see it is meant as a learning tool.
Having to manually type in "dir" to see what's in a folder and then figure out if what is displaying is a folder or a file is time consuming, this speeds that up.
The main goal of the PiX10Hub was to show users the WM100 wasn't the only solution to AHP and that using a Pi didn't mean you had to become a programmer.

Quote
I did make an effort at the beginning thinking that it would encourage others but I'm afraid it looks like that's not going to happen anytime soon.
May be not publicly.
However I have gotten a lot of feed back from encouraged users, they just refuse to post due to negative feed back and old time Linux attitudes.
Negative feed back definitely doesn't encourage any one and is the best way to kill any project.

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brobin

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2020, 04:13:51 PM »

How did all these so called noobs cope back in the days of MS DOS.

As an old timer who started out using Fortran, punch cards and paper tape, I'll share my opinion on this.  When you say "all these noobs," remember that most of us stopped using MS DOS commands almost 30 years ago with the advent of Macs and Windows.  Prior to that, most people wouldn't even touch a computer because they were interested in the results that programs would provide rather than learning how to use a cryptic OS.  Once MACs & Windows came out, computer sales went through the roof because the appliance became usable to the masses.  The same thing happened 100 years ago with cars as the need to manually retard the spark, set the choke, and turn the crank went away. Sales took off.

Most folks who want to automate their homes have no interest in learning an OS - they simply want to plug in a lamp, tell it to turn on everyday when it gets dark and be done with it.  That's why HA is finally taking off with the advent of Alexa & GH.  You are absolutely right when you say "This is all about users lack of desire to bother learning or researching the product..."  Why SHOULD there be a desire to do so?  Although I never used AHP, it was a GUI based product and users could plug it in, drag & drop and be in business in an afternoon.  With few new options for using X10 now, users are looking for alternatives and HG is a very good one.  However only a small subset of those users will have the time, desire or skillset to take advantage of it.  Anything that makes it easier or "dumbed down" will only broaden it's appeal and make it viable to a broader spectrum of users.

Learning an OS is like learning a foreign language (funny story to follow). It's a major investment in time and perceived as a roadblock to accomplishing the end result.

FUNNY STORY:  For me the Fortran and punch cards started while I was a high school junior in 1967.  My school was way ahead of the curve in opening a computer lab back then.  I loved it and did well with it.  OTH, I flunked Spanish 1 three times. My guidance counselor told me that I couldn't graduate without two years of a foreign language.  Being the smart aleck that I was (still am) I said that I WAS taking a foreign language that was far more useful than Spanish - Fortran.  She said "that's not a foreign language." I said "Can you speak it?"  She replied by telling me that if the head of the math department (who was the computer lab teacher) gave her a letter saying Fortran was equivalent to a foreign language she'd accept it.  He quickly signed off on it realizing how it might attract a lot more students to his program.  I DID learn enough Spanish to order cervesas and margaritas in Tiajuana!  >!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 04:20:34 PM by brobin »
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dave w

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2020, 04:43:58 PM »

 rofl
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petera

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2020, 06:34:04 PM »

Many users actually shied away from dos and/or never even looked a PC until windows came out.
Midnight commander doesn't stop users from learning Linux (which you seem to push so hard for) it makes navigation of the OS much easier.
If you're going to introduce any further overhead you may as well include Pixel the RPI GUI into the equation.
now that's just silly ::) :'

Quote
This is all about users lack of desire to bother learning or researching the product when you are handing it all to them. There's no motivation for anyone to get off their ass and contribute as a result.
I hope your wrong. This proves to users playing in the CLI isn't as scary as they may think.
If you took the time to look at this, you'd see it is meant as a learning tool.
Having to manually type in "dir" to see what's in a folder and then figure out if what is displaying is a folder or a file is time consuming, this speeds that up.
The main goal of the PiX10Hub was to show users the WM100 wasn't the only solution to AHP and that using a Pi didn't mean you had to become a programmer.

Quote
I did make an effort at the beginning thinking that it would encourage others but I'm afraid it looks like that's not going to happen anytime soon.
May be not publicly.
However I have gotten a lot of feed back from encouraged users, they just refuse to post due to negative feed back and old time Linux attitudes.
Negative feed back definitely doesn't encourage any one and is the best way to kill any project.

What puzzles me is, I'm assuming you are a long time user of some form of PC, now nearly entering its 40th anniversary and X10 which is around even longer yet you have only recently dabbled in a variant of Linux, Raspbian.

I'm not too sure of your CLI experience in Microsoft products but assuming you did spend time in the past using some form of DOS and naturally progressed on to Windoze in all it's incarnations did Linux and its later GUI not provide some form of curiousity to you. Besides the fact that the OS and all it's applications are free to install and use I thought that might appeal to a guy like yourself.

The whole principle of Linux is its vast collaboration resources. No one person owns it and controls it yet that concept seems to repulse many on this forum. There are plenty of forum members here that I have no doubt are past users of a DOS in some form way before the GUI arrived. In fact many I imagine used Unix in some form or other in their working life.

The simple fact is that you either like and take to Linux or you don't. I don't see anything new happening for Windoze in the years to come but I imagine the diehard Windoze users find it difficult to let go. Who knows.

Knocking out a few scripts pr entering a few commands at the terminal doesn't require a degree in computing. As I mentioned before, the user can install the GUI and do all the necessary from a local terminal. Nothing different to what was done in Windoze. Maybe if users here had started by installing Ubuntu or Debian on a PC with a full GUI they would have seen that there's basically no difference in the experience between it and Windoze. Maybe that could have been a way to lead the flock to a different field.

I did take a look at what you packaged and did give you opinions and advice on it but you're doing it your own anyway. Not exactly collabrative and not the way I work but I hope others jump on board. Now that the packaging is complete maybe it's time for productivity. Yes you can create an infinite amount of widgets etc but the real work is automation. Remember as soon as experienced code contributors stopped contributing to the HG project the project stalled.

The underlying desire on this forum is for a product that is just "plug'n'go". Those users have absolutely no interest what's going on under the hood. I did notice that the HG author has created what he calls the HomeGenie Mini which surprisingly incorporates X10 technology. Maybe that's the direction you could take the user base here in.

I'm in no way negative but rather a realist and in this case with all the effort you appeared to have put in and by your own admission you have six users you know of, if you think it was worth it then so be it. You may have some renewed development from the author some time soon (he tends to do that from time to time) but outside that I'm not sure what else you can do.

Just to be clear, it was the author walking away from and closing down a very mature and informative forum that killed a lot of interest in his product. Maybe he could supply you with his rationale for that decision. Others offered to continue to run the forum but he ignored those offers.

Btw you do know the reply you will get if you type "dir" at the CLI  :)%
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petera

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2020, 06:46:21 PM »

How did all these so called noobs cope back in the days of MS DOS.

As an old timer who started out using Fortran, punch cards and paper tape, I'll share my opinion on this.  When you say "all these noobs," remember that most of us stopped using MS DOS commands almost 30 years ago with the advent of Macs and Windows.  Prior to that, most people wouldn't even touch a computer because they were interested in the results that programs would provide rather than learning how to use a cryptic OS.  Once MACs & Windows came out, computer sales went through the roof because the appliance became usable to the masses.  The same thing happened 100 years ago with cars as the need to manually retard the spark, set the choke, and turn the crank went away. Sales took off.

Most folks who want to automate their homes have no interest in learning an OS - they simply want to plug in a lamp, tell it to turn on everyday when it gets dark and be done with it.  That's why HA is finally taking off with the advent of Alexa & GH.  You are absolutely right when you say "This is all about users lack of desire to bother learning or researching the product..."  Why SHOULD there be a desire to do so?  Although I never used AHP, it was a GUI based product and users could plug it in, drag & drop and be in business in an afternoon.  With few new options for using X10 now, users are looking for alternatives and HG is a very good one.  However only a small subset of those users will have the time, desire or skillset to take advantage of it.  Anything that makes it easier or "dumbed down" will only broaden it's appeal and make it viable to a broader spectrum of users.

Learning an OS is like learning a foreign language (funny story to follow). It's a major investment in time and perceived as a roadblock to accomplishing the end result.

FUNNY STORY:  For me the Fortran and punch cards started while I was a high school junior in 1967.  My school was way ahead of the curve in opening a computer lab back then.  I loved it and did well with it.  OTH, I flunked Spanish 1 three times. My guidance counselor told me that I couldn't graduate without two years of a foreign language.  Being the smart aleck that I was (still am) I said that I WAS taking a foreign language that was far more useful than Spanish - Fortran.  She said "that's not a foreign language." I said "Can you speak it?"  She replied by telling me that if the head of the math department (who was the computer lab teacher) gave her a letter saying Fortran was equivalent to a foreign language she'd accept it.  He quickly signed off on it realizing how it might attract a lot more students to his program.  I DID learn enough Spanish to order cervesas and margaritas in Tiajuana!  >!

And I thought I was bad with COBOL on an IBM VAX  rofl

Funny thing but HG is a GUI based application that will run in Windoze Mac and Linux. Yes you're right. Nobody should have to bother themselves with the OS and set up correctly nobody does. The whole point of this effort I imagined was to provide the user with a means to operate their X10 equipment with similar facilities to their current offering AHP. That was simple. Timers, macros and automation. It's all there in HG so I've no idea why users are struggling. If its a Linux thing, install the bloody thing on a Windoze or Mac machine and all that horrible Linux thing subsides  :)%
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dhouston

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 07:13:01 AM »

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Tuicemen

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2020, 09:06:46 AM »

@petera, your right I shouldn't be including my finds or my programs and creations in the image without getting feed back from the Community first.
I've decided not to include this in nor create any new image without community input first.
So I've added a poll to this thread to see if users would like to see this possibly added to a future build of the PiX10Hub image.
I'll also remove any of my personal favorite HG programs from the next image unless the community votes to have them added.

No Community Input = The PiX10Hub project dies! :(
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 09:38:23 AM by Tuicemen »
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bkenobi

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2020, 12:50:25 PM »

I'm a little confused about the reason for the GUI that you've selected.  The reason for it seems to be that users don't want to type and would rather use a mouse to copy/paste/navigate.  But the thing is, all they have to do is install the full version of Raspbian instead of the lite version if that's the desire.  They would need a monitor and mouse for local control or could enable remote access and use the RPi as a terminal with a GUI.  The only limitation to this is that they probably would want to use a more powerful board than the RPiZW as it's likely to be a little slow running a full GUI as well as HG, a plethora of scripts, and expect to perform real-time actions when called upon.

It seems to me that if the goal is a GUI, rather than using something worse than dos shell, they could actually use a full fledged environment that will look and feel like Windows which apparently is what they want anyway.  This actually solves other issues as well as it sounds like from other threads that you (among others) may be experiencing slow performance.  That is a direct link to the board selected.  I recommended that it would be better to use a RPi3 a couple years ago over the Zero but others indicated that the cost was king.  I recall the thread leading to the point where it was recommended that the Zero would be more than adequate so long as it was non-GUI and users did not install too many add-ons.  From what I have seen personally, my RPi3 is WAY faster than my RPi1 running the same basic setup.  IIRC, the Zero is very similar specs to the RPi1 so the performance limitations some are seeing do not surprise me.

Tuicemen

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2020, 01:14:40 PM »

The reason I thought this might be a nice add is it works via shh. And that it would make the shell a little more navagatable for newbies or users like me that constantly miss spell a folder name. One of my zeroW boards does have a slow responce time however that is due to my attempts to load new things to it.  Speeding it up without a total reinstall is something Im attempting to do as a learning experience. My others run fine except the 3b+ but it appears to be a power supply connection I need to address.

I have used this even from my phone no need to have a monitor or mouse hard connected to the pi.
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bkenobi

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2020, 01:33:40 PM »

If you hit 'tab' when typing in Linux it auto completes so you don't have to worry about spelling/typos.

Tuicemen

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2020, 01:36:07 PM »

If you hit 'tab' when typing in Linux it auto completes so you don't have to worry about spelling/typos.
nice tip thanks! I'll give it a shot next time and see if it works for me. >!
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Tuicemen

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2020, 04:15:48 PM »

Ok tip  works, doesn't work all the time but close. 8)
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racerfern

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Re: Midnight Commander
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2020, 04:26:52 PM »

Quote
How did all these so called noobs cope back in the days of MS DOS

All these so called noobs weren't even born when MS-DOS, Basic, DR-DOS(my favorite), CP/M and the like were the thing. However, these noobs are the C+ and whatever the hot language is today yet they still want the GUI interface and they code for it. After years of Fortran, Pascal, etc I, like many others like the ease of a good GUI interface. Rather than typing an exact command like "copy blah blah you can click and drag and you don't even have to hit the one pixel, you can land anywhere along the folder line. It really is more convenient, at least for me.

@brobin - PUNCH CARDS!! Programming on a PDP-8?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 04:28:48 PM by racerfern »
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