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Author Topic: PH508 Failure  (Read 535 times)

gkamieneski

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PH508 Failure
« on: June 07, 2020, 02:25:06 PM »

I have had a PH508 plugged into an outlet in my garage ceiling for at least 10 years. Yesterday it went berserk on its own with a very loud buzzing noise, but not its usual alarm sound. I had to flip the breaker to be able to put the stepladder up to remove the PH508.

Now, plug it into any outlet and it immediately starts the large buzzing alarm. Certainly didn't reset itself.

Anyone have any thoughts or is it time for the trash?
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brobin

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2020, 03:03:10 PM »

You could open it up and look for something obvious like insect remains or just get a new one for about 20 bucks in ebay.
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Brian H

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2020, 06:33:55 PM »

Loud Buzz or Hum.
Probably a power supply electrolytic capacitor has dried up.
If you are handy you could probably replace them. I would do all if I did attempt a fix.
At ten years old. Other parts maybe getting close to failing. New one maybe the best choice.
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gkamieneski

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2020, 03:28:22 PM »

Thanks, all.

Didn't know that something that sits dormant for so long could actually wear out, especially the electronics, but I see your point.
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brobin

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2020, 03:48:11 PM »

Thanks, all.

Didn't know that something that sits dormant for so long could actually wear out, especially the electronics, but I see your point.

Electrolytic caps are the culprit in so many devices as they age.  Between age and heat they dry out and/or actually bulge and pop. The + embossed on the top of the cap provides a weak point to let the 'magic smoke' out.  A lot of manufacturers use caps that are undersized like a 10 volt (wvdc) cap where a 16 volt one would likely last years longer.  I used to use ReplayTV DVR's and everyone one of them blew the same 2200uf 10wvdc cap in their power supplies.  Once replaced with 2200uf 16wvdc caps they lasted for years before I moved on to TIVO units.  The Insteon Smart Hubs are famous for their C7 capacitor failure - again, an upsized cap solved the issue. 

With just pennies in cost difference I never understood why that's done... or maybe I do.  :'
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JeffVolp

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2020, 10:06:15 AM »

A lot of manufacturers use caps that are undersized like a 10 volt (wvdc) cap where a 16 volt one would likely last years longer.

Voltage rating is not the major factor in electrolytic failure.  From Cornell Dubilier:

Aluminum electrolytic capacitors made with formation voltages at least 35% higher than rated voltage and with rated temperatures of 85 C or higher, dont require much voltage derating. In applications operating at less than 45 C no derating is needed

Heat is the major contributor to electrolytic failure.   That not only means ambient temperature, but also internal heating from ripple current.  Again, from Cornell Dubilier:

Some makers appear to calculate operating life saying that expected lifetime doubles with less that a 10 C drop in temperature. The expectation that life doubles for each 10 C reduction is well demonstrated by life tests and is consistent with the Arrhenius equation of chemical activation and the activation energy for aluminum electrolytic capacitors.

(They use a more complex equation themselves that they believe is more accurate.)

The electrolytics in both of my Ocelots failed and had to be replaced after being in service about 15 years.  The ones that were in there measured essentially an open circuit.  I located the replacements further away from the regulator heat sink.

Both of my Tektronix 7603 oscilloscopes went down with failed electrolytics in the power supply.  I'm sure that was well engineered, but heat and 40+ years of service took its toll.  The replacements were tiny compared with what was in there.

Electolytics can even deteriorate on the shelf with an increase in leakage current.

While the XTB-IIR uses a 85C capacitor because of low ripple current and little temperature rise in the large case, I went to a 105C capacitor in the XTB-523 and new XTBR due to the tight case and location near the power transformer.

Jeff
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Brian H

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2020, 10:33:42 AM »

Ask the Insteon users of the 2413 PLM and V2 of the Access Points.
Capacitors where rated 105C and voltage had a fair voltage margin.
What they did not do was use capacitors designed to be in a switching power supply. That the 2413 used.
We have a very long thread on the UDI forums on symptoms, rebuilding, and qualified capacitors.
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JeffVolp

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2020, 10:51:52 AM »

What they did not do was use capacitors designed to be in a switching power supply.

Yes, that is the ripple current I mentioned earlier.  It causes internal heating and early failure if the capacitor is not rated for it.

Jeff
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brobin

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2020, 11:00:33 AM »

Ask the Insteon users of the 2413 PLM and V2 of the Access Points.
Capacitors where rated 105C and voltage had a fair voltage margin.
What they did not do was use capacitors designed to be in a switching power supply. That the 2413 used.
We have a very long thread on the UDI forums on symptoms, rebuilding, and qualified capacitors.

I read the UDI thread about the 2413S caps.  Do the same mouser part numbers apply to the 2413U?  I use a 2413U with the Smartenit Harmony controller only because it receives directly from an Insteon open/close sensor.
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Brian H

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2020, 12:43:10 PM »

Yes the 2413U has the same main board. Just a different daughter board. Same caps in both 2413S and 2413U. Along with the hardware version 2 of the 2443 Access Points. The 2413 revision 2.3 and above have different capacitors in them rated for switching supplies.

I though the Harmony P2 came with a 2412U power line only interface. It uses a different capacitors and has a power transformer.

Smartenit must have a surplus of 2412 interfaces. I see they have the bare base 2412 no daughter board module, the 2412S serial and 2412U USB modules on Ebay.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 01:01:14 PM by Brian H »
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brobin

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Re: PH508 Failure
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2020, 04:42:35 PM »

They offer the 2412U at a discount when bundled with a P2 or G2 Harmony (the G1's are is gone).  The P2, for example, is now $39.95 alone or plus $20 with a 2412U.  I bought just the unit as I already had a 2412S "in stock" that I used with a serial-to-usb adapter and then bought a 2413U on ebay when I decided to use an Insteon wireless open/close sensor on my package bin.
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