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Author Topic: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?  (Read 90367 times)

poursha

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2007, 06:36:46 PM »

I have a 1132CU in service now. I only use the Free Smarthome Manager Essential and not the Pro that adds Conditionals.
I just have a set of times downloaded to it, so nothing fancy.
Mine has one problem that maybe related to my exact hardware. If I leave the USB Cable connected and the computer is off. The internal clock in the 1132CU can loose maybe 30 minutes to an hour over night. Unconnected it is just fine. I do have my USB ports set to have NO Standby Power on them, most have standby on them for things like Wake On USB Activity.

I also noticed this loss of time...

Since I don't do daily updates to timers or macros, I decided to move the CM15A to the upstairs, and get it out of my living room.  Not longer hooked to a PC full time.  It does seem to lose time, but I haven't quantified it yet.

Frustrating.  I mean, timing is one of the simplest chipsets, you'd think that it would work with AC power, and battery backup.  I guess one solution would be to hook to another PC, or to hook to a USB power supply.

Rob
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MitchB

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2007, 03:17:35 PM »

More people should use USB extenders.  I have my CM15a in the garage by the breaker panel.  Granted, it's a little tougher for RF use, but the unit is always connected to my PC.  The only nuisance is the run of CAT5 (attic).  I haven't had a lockup in months, so maybe I'm just lucky.  If it becomes an issue, I'll surely add the Reset switch.

Of course, I"ve now turned the $50 product into at least a $100 product.
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bitman

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2009, 07:11:53 PM »

Sweet.

 :)%
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lorcott

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2011, 11:53:59 AM »

MitchB...FYI, I'm using Windows Remote Desktop and a dedicated computer running AHP AND the CM15 are both near the circuit breaker box. No need for USB extender.
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pomonabill221

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2011, 04:23:37 PM »

Got sick of the infamous battery ritual to
reset the CM15A. So I installed a normally
closed pushbutton on the case and wired it in
series with U5. When pushed, it interrupts
power to the 5 volt regulator and resets the
controller. You dont even have to unplug it!
 
Joe

GREAT idea BUT......

The regulator in the CM15 is a LM2931 (a LDOV (low drop out voltage)) regulator so that it will still operate when the battery voltage gets to around 5 volts.
  THIS IS A PROBLEM with this CHOICE of regulator because under NORMAL load, the unregulated input voltage is about 24 volts (after the bridge / zener / 150ohm resistor) at C12.
  When the input (or output for that matter) to/from the regulator is removed, the UNregulated voltage rises to about 34-37 volts (depends on your AC input voltage).
  When the power is reapplied to the regulator, it shuts down because of the over voltage shutdown (protection feature) of the regulator.  Linear Tech's data sheet lists this value as "Maximum operational input voltage".
  The data sheet for the regulator (search for LM2931) states that it will shut down if the input voltage exceeds (typically) 33 volts, and this is exactly what happens when the load is removed from the regulator's input!  B:( B:(
  I would imagine THIS IS WHAT IS "HANGING" (as what alot of people have problems with) the CM15!!  -:)
  Think of this scenerio:

  1)  Everything is running fine and your AC line is a little bit high on the line the CM15 is plugged into because some heavy loads (Uwave, AC, coffee maker, clothes iron, electric floor heater) are running on the OTHER line and the loads on the AC lines are not balanced and the neutral has been pulled to the loaded side that makes the line to neutral voltage for your CM15 a little higher than 115 VAC.  Could be as high as 125-128 volts!!!!

   2) An inductive load is applied across one of the heavily loaded lines and creates a small spike that walks through the PS transformer/FWB/filter caps/zener/150 ohm resistor, and spikes the 28-30 UNregulated voltage to around 33-35 volts.

  3) The LM2931's crowbar circuit shuts down the regulated 5 volts and the CM15 seems to "hang".  it is REALLY SHUT DOWN!!!! B:( B:( B:(
 
The ONLY way to recover is to power down and remove the batteries!!!
  It is NOT necessarily a hung processor, BUT WHAT IS KNOWN AS "CROWBAR" IN POWER SUPPLIES!!!
  The ONLY way to remove the crowbar condition of the regulator is to remove ALL power (AC and batteries).
  Some people that try this great idea for a reset mod MAY not have the crowbar shutdown happen as the unloaded power supply voltage is MARGINALLY near the crowbar threshold of the regulator.
  When I tried it (remove input or output), the regulator did not always shutdown.  :-\
  I took some measurements and the unloaded and loaded unregulated voltages I found were VERY close to the maximum limits on the regulator so I am going to try and find another LDOV regulator that has a higher input voltage limit, or change the zener on the input to a 12 or 15 volt and place a small load resistor on the input to keep the regulator to keep the zener loaded when the real load is disconnected.  Problem with that is the batteries will also be artificially loaded when no AC is being supplied... hhmmmmm.
  Right now, I am actually shorting the regulator's output.  I know,,, I know.... not a good idea, BUT the regulator DOES have short circuit protection, over power disapation shutdown, AND during the short, the current is only 70 mA and the regulator is rated at 100 mA max., so it doesn't really harm the regulator
  STILL is NOT a good idea, but in the mean time.....
  Looks like a better LDOV regulator is the best answer....  WITH the OP's great idea as well!!!! >!
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dave w

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2011, 08:42:57 PM »

 -:)
Mount a N.C. push button, wired in series with the positive lead from the batteries, on the back of the CM15A.

Now you have to unplug CM15A to get to the reset button. So simple.  rofl
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pomonabill221

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2011, 12:10:37 AM »

-:)
Mount a N.C. push button, wired in series with the positive lead from the batteries, on the back of the CM15A.

Now you have to unplug CM15A to get to the reset button. So simple.  rofl

Yes that will work too, BUT the whole idea of the OP's mod was to eliminate the battery and/or unplug ritual, so the reset button that removes power could be located a short distance away from the CM15 so that it is easily accessable, and there would be no need to unplug and/or remove the batteries.  even simpler!!!   rofl rofl

Or another thought.... use a TM751's appliance outlet to pull a relay that removes power from the CM15 AND opens the battery supply.   Simply turn the TM751 on then off.  You would use the NC contacts on the relay (double pole!!!).  rofl rofl rofl

OR yet another thought... use a universal module in the momentary mode to pulse a relay that does the above.   rofl rofl rofl rofl

The original post was a great thought to simplify resetting the CM15, and I am greatful for his idea! >! #:)  I was just shedding some light on a fault that I found (NOT the op's fault, X10's design fault!), with the original idea, and what it might cause, and what is causing it and maybe other's "hanging CM15" problem.
  There are ALWAYS different ways to accomplish a thought, and I was offering my findings and ideas to possibly improve his idea.  I don't appreciate the sarcasim!
  These forums are here to help others with problems, and to share ideas and findings.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 12:19:58 AM by pomonabill221 »
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dave w

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2011, 02:53:38 PM »

I don't appreciate the sarcasim!
  These forums are here to help others with problems, and to share ideas and findings.
If you are referring to my post, it was intended to be humorous, not sarcastic.  :-*
The suggestion was intended to eliminate the hassle of removing the CM15A batteries,  since interupting the regulator input could cause the regulator to shut down in crowbar mode, still requiring unplugging AND removing the batteries.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 03:00:31 PM by dave w »
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pomonabill221

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2011, 05:12:24 PM »

  Well I found a LDOV regulator with a higher max input voltage (40 volts).
  All the features are the same... thermal shutdown (pretty typical these days), low drop out voltage (200 mV), TO-92 with the same pinout (reversed from "regular" regulators  ie... input/gnd/output), short circuit protection.
  The difference, besides max input voltage, is the max current.
  The one used has a 100 mA max, and this one has 50 mA max.
  The CM15A is only using about 15 mA so this should not be a problem.
  The National part is an LM2936, and there is a TO-92 package available.
  Another option I will try first is changing the zener from a 10 volt to a 15 volt.  There is no reason for the regulator to have such a high input voltage, and this should prevent the regulator from going into crowbar.
  I think the 150 ohm resistor is there to keep the power dissipation down for the zener, and to prevent excessive current in case of short circuit.
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pomonabill221

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2011, 04:23:45 PM »

  Well my latest testing revealed that installing a 5 volts zener in series with the 10 volt DID reduce the regulator's input voltage to below crowbar, -:)
 BUT....
  When power is first applied, something is drawing enough current (either the processor booting and the 120Khz driver being on during the startup drawing alot of current (believe me, it DOES turn on briefly)), that the +5 output is only getting to about +3, and the processor never does start! B:(
  Soooo...
  The culprit is the 150 ohm resistor on the input to the regulator limiting the startup current, and if removed, the processor starts up fine. :)%
  I am guessing the 150 ohm is there to keep the current low when the CM15 is on battery power, and when the CM15 tries to transmitt an X10 plc signal it tries to use the battery to do it.
  When on battery power, the zeners are forward biased like a conventional diode, and battery voltage is used to drive the coupling transformer...
  Sooo...
  I installed a conventional diode in place of the 150 ohm resistor that would isolate the PLC output section when on battery.
  I can now reset the CM15 with a NC pushbutton either on AC or Battery power, and the battery supplied the regulator for backup, and NOT the PLC section.
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jclarkw

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2016, 02:04:55 PM »

Got sick of the infamous battery ritual to
reset the CM15A. So I installed a normally
closed pushbutton on the case and wired it in
series with U5. When pushed, it interrupts
power to the 5 volt regulator and resets the
controller. You dont even have to unplug it!
Joe

Yeah, this is a really old thread, but here's an ignorant question about this clever technique:

Do you still have to remove the batteries to make this work, or does the switch also disconnect the batteries?  (Doesn't sound like it disconnects the batteries, but I haven't looked at the schematic...) -- jclarkw
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Brian H

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2016, 04:07:36 PM »

Here is the schematic of the main board in the CM15A.
That is not the latest where X10WTI had it redesigned to use Surface Mounted parts and the RF Transmitter and receiver are now on the main board. Older design has a RF Transmitter daughter board and RF receiver daughter board.

https://www.laser.com/dhouston/CM15A.pdf

The four bypass capacitors in Red are not on the board but end users found it made it much more stable by adding them.

The batteries feed U5 input through some diodes so the main supply does not feed back into the batteries when on AC.
I would say breaking the U5 output would interrupt the power to the whole boards logic.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 04:10:20 PM by Brian H »
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jclarkw

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2016, 06:26:51 PM »

...The batteries feed U5 input through some diodes so the main supply does not feed back into the batteries when on AC.
I would say breaking the U5 output would interrupt the power to the whole boards logic.

Thanks!  Go it.  Maybe it's time to open up this old unit (labeled "12K48", with the daughter boards) again.  I haven't looked inside the newer version (labeled "15D15") yet... -- jclarkw
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 06:29:14 PM by jclarkw »
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jclarkw

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2016, 06:52:50 PM »

Here is the schematic of the main board in the CM15A.
That is not the latest where X10WTI had it redesigned to use Surface Mounted parts and the RF Transmitter and receiver are now on the main board. Older design has a RF Transmitter daughter board and RF receiver daughter board.

Brian -- With reference to this schematic, do you also have a board layout?  (Seems to me I had one somewhere but can't find it.)  I just opened up my CM15A (indeed it's the old design with two daughter boards), but I cannot easily determine which chip is the voltage regulator (U5), nor which pin on that chip needs to be momentarily disconnected (or maybe there's even a conventional wire, which would make life a lot easier).

I see that Dave Houston's X10 site is still up and running, which is great!  Somewhere I found out how to disable both the RF receiver (most important to avoid interference with other transceivers on the same house code) and the transmitter (which apparently isn't really necessary, but I didn't want it "sounding off").  I can see where I tied one of the pins on one of the daughter boards through a resistor to the power rail (or ground?), but I don't remember the other trick.

Also, I don't suppose anybody has figured out comparable information for the new (surface mounted) model?  I opened one of those too, and it looks pretty inscrutable. -- jclarkw
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Brian H

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Re: Want to eliminate the battery ritual?
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2016, 07:41:59 PM »

Original CM15A is in the FCC Database.
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm?calledFromFrame=N

Grantee: B4S
Product Code: CM15A
Pick details.
Internal and external photos, parts lists and original schematics are there.

I believe Dave Houston did some preliminary observations on the surface mounted version and  had posted a photo of the new layout. I understand the RF receiver and Transmitter are all now incorporated on the one large main board.
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