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Author Topic: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros  (Read 77359 times)

stan gale

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2006, 09:36:31 PM »

It's all so interesting....

Tech Support says the CM15A should be set to function as a transceiver.

Roger thinks Tech support was confused.  The CM15A should not transceive any house codes that are transceived by an external transceiver.

Tuicemen doesn't have his tm751 house code checked as monitored or transcieved and has no problems.  But recommends I definitely shouldn't have the transcieved checked for my tm751s house code. He explains that if AHP is set to auto and the tm751 configured correctly, AHP won't let you set that house code as transcieved anyways.

Mystyx  doesn't like TM751s in the setup...  if I need them, find an alternative. Says I shouldn't need a TM751 in the setup. Recommends modifying the antenna or getting a polite repeater to "get the extra distance needed". Pushes boosters. (But how do the modules get their signal without a tranceiver in the vicinity - when the problem we're solving is using RF because powerline commands don't get through?)

Roger says I should quit using TM751s, instead switch to the RR501, which uses a completely different design and probably doesn't have this bug. (Emphasis mine.)

Of course all this conjecture means that X10 has arranged it so none of us actually know how this is supposed to work!

Why shouldn't I be able to use RF commands from AHP to turn lights Off/On if Powerline Commands don't get through? (RF commands from a Palmpad Remote work fine.)

Why shouldn't a TM751 be able to receive and execute commands from a CM15A? Particularly if adding a "delay" pause of several seconds to allow for "clearing the line" is the first step in a Macro who's sole purpose is to turn a light on?

Is there any documentation to support that RR501s are a solution to this failure to function?

My tests show it doesn't matter how the CM15A  "Transceived House Code(s)" is configured.

Any other ideas on how to I find out how this is supposed to work?

Thanks for all your contributions, guys - I'm sure in the end we'll come up with a resolution.

Stan
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Mystyx

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2006, 05:01:55 AM »

My personal thoughts on TM751s and other boosters (polite repeaters) is that TM751s ship with individual products and are intended to control the products separately, if you buy just a camera set you would need the TM751

CM15A is a controller for everything. they don't hide the fact that you need a repeater to help transmit over longer distances. they may reduce the range of the product to help reduce unwanted signals from other sources. the TM751 is Not a repeater and wasn't intended to be one. The RF command wasn't there to boost distance but to control products that only use RF signals.

I'm my setup I only use RF commands to control my RF light socket and my RF P/T commands, everything else uses the powerlines.
I had A TON of transmitting problems when I first started playing with my setup. even the older controller (CM11A) also required the RR501 as a repeater to function properly. even the newest automated hardware out there (Insteon) requires 2 repeaters to function properly (New as of June 2005) read/click here a bit about how the technology functions.

Things like filtering TVs and PCs will help transmissions through the powerline too.
people have used the TM751s, but there are things to take into consideration, much easier to not use em if you don't need to. :)
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stan gale

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2006, 12:11:31 AM »

Mystyx,

Your statement about AHP's CM15A:

"The RF command wasn't there to boost distance but to control products that only use RF signals."

Maybe this is true - but maybe it isn't - and why isn't this communicated in the Owners Manual or by Tech Support?

It'd be so much simpler if this "feature" and it's use(s) was explained by the Manufacturer/Distributor.

Please understand  the reason I need to use RF commands to control X10 modules:

The amount of effort and time it would take to determine why Powerline Commands won't get through simply can't be estimated.

I'd have to buy a meter to detect noise and a meter to detect X10 signals, than laboriously circuit by circuit investigate where/what the problems are, than buy who-knows-how-many filters based on what is found, then hope it all works.

If I could hire somebody to do it for a fixed fee, that would be the answer - but somehow there are there no "X10 Installers" listed in Los Angeles - (City of approx. 10,000,000 people.)

Certainly it seems that the investment in dollars necessary to get Powerline Commands working reliably would easily exceed the investment in AHP/Smart Macros, as well as a big batch of modules by a factor of at least 2. Worse - this doesn't include my time!

As it is, my wife is very miffed at the time I've spent/am spending - and is particularly mad that when we came home today an expensive aquarium light was switching on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off etc. as a result of another experiment of mine trying to get an Appliance Module to obey a Timer, which has an "On" Macro set to send an"On" RF Command to the module (after 2 second delay) to turn the light on, and a separate "Off" Macro set to send an"Off" RF Command to the module (after 2 second delay) to turn the light off.
The Activity Monitor showed that instead of simply turning the light on/instigating the "On" RF command - BOTH Macros psychotically were activated in perpetuity.

Stan

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roger1818

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2006, 10:54:44 AM »

I don't like TM751s in the setup...  if you need them, find an alternative. You shouldn't need a TM751 in the setup.

I totally agree.  If for some reason you can't use the transceiver that is built into the CM15A you should at a minimum be using one or more RR501s.  Better yet would be to use a V572AB from WGL & Associates

Heres a couple boosters I found... look around. (I have not tried em all)

Personally I only reccomend powerline boosters only as a last resort.  Even at that, you have to be careful as if they are used in the wrong place, they can cause their own problems.
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stan gale

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2006, 03:45:26 PM »

Oddly, after many back/forth e-mails, this link was sent:

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Setting_The_CM15A_to_send_RF_Commands

The heart of it:

"You can use RF macros to control modules that are tricky to control directly from the CM15A.
Get a TM751 Transciever, set it to the House Code of the recalcitrant module, and plug it in on the same circuit breaker as that module.
Set the command to the house and unit code that you are sending to the TM751, and it will re-transmit the signal over your house wiring."

Wow.

If it only worked.

I'll ask Tech Support about RR501s.

Best,

Stan
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Tuicemen

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2006, 04:01:44 PM »

Basicly thats how mine is setup but it also controls modules that are on different circuits but same phase.
Interestinly  PLC signals from my tm751 make it back to my CM15A, but I can't get PLC signals to that circuit from the CM15a. ???
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Mystyx

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2006, 09:26:12 PM »

Quote
Interestinly  PLC signals from my tm751 make it back to my CM15A, but I can't get PLC signals to that circuit from the CM15a

Thats probably because the receive voltage on the CM15A is low enough to pick up signals from long distances, where the transmit voltage is set to low (1.8v - 2.4v maybe 3v out) to get that same distance. compared to other products which have 5volts out.

one of the trim pots would change that if extra distance is needed :)
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stan gale

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2006, 03:15:53 PM »

This just in fro Eric Boyd of X10 Tech Support:

> Greetings!
>
> That explains why you are seeing loops. The macro sends a radio command, which trips the TM751, which genererates a powerline command, which trips the macro...
>
> Put the macro trigger at an unused House/Unit code combination. If you have any more questions, please reply to this email. Thanks for choosing X10!


My response to Tech Support:

Thanks for the obscure "hint".

I appreciate that you gave me this clue - but I've had probably 20 encounters with Tech Support both on the phone and through e-mails before getting this far.

I've also spent valuable hours on the internet forums, including X10's forum trying to get help.

You've got many good guys on out there who truly love the idea of X10, but are struggling with various aspects of it because of scanty, incomplete documentation. Several of these guys tried earnestly to help me with all kinds of theories and advice - but none of them knew the answer.
These guys are to be applauded - but their time is valuable too - and has being unnecessarily wasted.

Frankly I'm extremely unhappy about the vast quantity of  time and aggravation your companies poor documentation and lack of timely and complete Tech Support has cost my new friends on the forums as well my own.

It's not like I am technically inept, illiterate, or have a low IQ.

Your hint does not include the fact that I had to figure out that making a "Dummy Module" with the Trigger HC/UC in the Room is required, then one can create subsequent Macros which use this HC/UC as the trigger, than finally use the modules I want to control within these Macros.

Why don't you spell  it out - "The trigger HC/UC must be different than the HC/UC of the module(s) you want to control. Otherwise, the Macro's command trips the Macro again - creating an endless loop."

How many people would figure out this scenario on their own?

I would expect that X10 Manuals, kbase, andTech Support would help their customers learn to use this product in a more efficient manner.

Why didn't you tell me this when first asked?

Why is this not part of the manual?

Why is this not part of http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Setting_The_CM15A_to_send_RF_Commands?

And isn't using the same House/Unit Code for the trigger and Macro command going to cause the same phenomenon - Powerline or RF?

Stan Gale
« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 03:31:30 PM by stan gale »
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stan gale

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2006, 04:16:13 PM »

I went to the "Report Vandalism' window and typed in what should be part of
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Setting_The_CM15A_to_send_RF_Commands?

There's a window that states:

     "Thank you for taking the time to report potential vandalism on the X10 Knowledgebase Wiki. Please fill out the following form and hit the 'submit' button to send it to our moderation staff."

Perhaps we should each start contributing our own hard-won solutions in this manner?

Perhaps we should edit/amend/add to the k/base or make suggestions to upgrade the manuals ourselves in order to make X10 a better experience.

Best,

Stan Gale
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roger1818

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2006, 04:49:34 PM »

This just in fro Eric Boyd of X10 Tech Support:

> Greetings!
>
> That explains why you are seeing loops. The macro sends a radio command, which trips the TM751, which genererates a powerline command, which trips the macro...
>
> Put the macro trigger at an unused House/Unit code combination. If you have any more questions, please reply to this email. Thanks for choosing X10!

My response to Tech Support:

Thanks for the obscure "hint".

So are you saying that you have solved your problem?

I went to the "Report Vandalism' window and typed in what should be part of
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Setting_The_CM15A_to_send_RF_Commands?

Why not just update the Wiki yourself?  That is the beauty of Wiki is everyone can contribute to make it better.  These forums are great, but it isn't always easy to find the information you are looking for when doing a search. 

I believe the "Report Vandalism" option is for reporting malicious damage to Wiki pages under the guise of being a contribution.
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stan gale

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2006, 07:46:06 PM »

This just in!


Greetings!

Please see the revisions I have made to the knowledge base article incorporating your suggestions:

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Setting_The_CM15A_to_send_RF_Commands

Our documentation is not ideal; there is a lot of technical material out there that is easier to find from other sources than us. Here are some references I use:

http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm
http://www.shed.com/links.html

When I feel bad about the state of our documentation, I take a look at some of the third-party manuals I occasionally find for customers. Certainly, I see better-documented products; however, I do also see some purely atrocious manuals out there, from some pretty big companies. (A recent Panasonic VCR manual comes to mind.)

The knowledge base Wiki is a recent addition to our site; we are expanding it, and remain hopeful that we will see more customer feedback in it.

I am sorry that you spent so much time figuring this out, and that I did not more clearly explain to you how this needed to work. If you have any more questions, please reply to this email. Thanks for choosing X10!

Eric Boyd
ericb@x10.com
X10 Email Support
http://kbase.x10.com
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 01:24:15 AM by -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) »
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stan gale

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2006, 08:21:35 PM »

Thanks Eric,

Once the Trigger Codes were changed to unused ones, the endless loop stopped. Now AHP works!

It's great that you changed the Kbase article, because none of the knowledgable guys on the forum knew about this.

I hope a lot of people get to use this great feature, since so many X10 problems are noise/interference problems, and this is a workaround that's free and pretty simple. (Once you know the trick!)

Thanks again,

Stan Gale
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billy

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2006, 10:31:01 PM »

Stan,

I think your problem now are the TM751's repeating the signals.  Make sure to set up a the TM751 modules in AHP.
What HC do you have the TM751's set as? Also what is the trigger address for you macro?


We just didn't know the complete details, House Codes, Unit Codes of your installation!
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Mystyx

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2006, 12:26:03 AM »

Why don't you spell  it out - "The trigger HC/UC must be different than the HC/UC of the module(s) you want to control. Otherwise, the Macro's command trips the Macro again - creating an endless loop."

I would have never guessed you used the same UC/HC on each....

did you send him your *.AHX file to get the answer? ;)
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stan gale

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Re: 3 weeks with AHP/Macros
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2006, 03:52:47 PM »

Mystyx and Billy,

You're inferring that it's intuitive to use different HC/UCs.

But if you're trying to control A1 - it's intuitive to use A1 - not something else.

It's like saying people automatically know that to make a motorcycle steer, you exert pressure on the handlebars counter to the direction you want to go.

Stan
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