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Author Topic: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting  (Read 32934 times)

amigamax

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X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« on: June 22, 2006, 04:45:01 PM »

I would like to get a comment from a few people about the success or lack of it
using LED light bulbs with X10 modules.   ??? There may be some issues but maybe less
than florescent as I expect they both (LED & X10) incorporate switching vs old sine wave,
and have heard of current bleeding showing up in LEDs, but I will understand as I continue
to read the theories on this stuff.  I have both 35 & 60 LED light bulbs I may try to use.

I am looking for a brief "what to expect" for non techies, but welcome technical
comments or explanations as well.  Also may try controlling a DC powered AC inverter
outside over wireless, though I may have to get creative.  I am just beginning with this stuff. 
My stuff isn't even here yet. 

Thanks in advance  ;)

Gizmo
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Dan Lawrence

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 05:15:10 PM »

1. As to LED's, if they are rated for house current (120volts) or run off a transfromer they will work with X10, particarly with appliance modules. which don't dim. I would not recommend lamp modules with LED's due to the dimming feature.

1. You cannot use CFL's with Lamp Modules unless they are non-dimming. CFL's sod by mass marketers are all labled "not to be used in dimmer circuits.
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steven r

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 05:40:43 PM »

Other than dimming I don't think you would have a problem. I put up LED Christmas lights last year and don't recall a problem.
Do your LED bulbs screw into a standard bulb socket? If so, I'd recommend controlling them with socket rockets.

I'd replace my flood lights with LED bulbs if it wasn't such a chunk of cash to buy each bulb. My floods like to come on almost every time a bug goes by. It would be nice to know that they weren't using so much energy.

As a side note I'm a real advocate of LED lights. eg How many bulbs are in a LED street light? Would you believe 200 for each color? Yeah I counted them.

I also collect LED flashlights. I currently have lost count of how many I have.

The latest one I'm drooling over put haven't justified the cost is here.

It got a 5 star rating (the highest) from the LED museum. Click here for that review.



« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 05:49:36 PM by steven r »
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steven r

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 05:47:45 PM »

...Also may try controlling a DC powered AC inverter...
I wouldn't recommend it. It didn't work for me. My transceiver box started getting hot almost the minute I plugged it in to the inverted AC supply. May it wasn't a true enough sine wave to make X10 happy.  ;)
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amigamax

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2006, 11:23:40 AM »

Dan:

Thx for the info.  Yes, the LED lamps I have are designed for 110VAC. 
I just bought 2 more 18 LED units on ebay.  They won't put out much light,
but for my application I do not care, and they were cheap.

CFL (compact florescent lighting - screw in florescent lamps) was a foreign term to me,
despite the fact that I have more than 5 of them in my house.   I would expect
those type of lamps to flash erratically and destroy the starter circuit in them
within a few minutes if used with a dimmer circuit, unless the particular lamp
had additional circuitry; i.e. was designed for dimming.  I tried one in my front
porch motion sensor once.  It went nuts.  I guess my front porch light uses pulsed
switching.

Steven:

Thx for your experience.  I have a 60 LED lamp, and I'm not sure it would be
equivalent as a flood light.  My application is only see just enough not to trip.
You probably won't get the same amount of light with LEDS unless you have well
over 100 of them.  Checked out the sites.  I will consider installing 2 inverted
capacitors across the AC leads to smooth the wave if I employ controlling remotely.
I may just stick to solar & DC - would be better for solar powered anyhow. 

Thanks for the info guys.




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amigamax

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2006, 11:48:46 PM »

Well the finding is that LED lamp style bulbs may have a tendency to stay partially lit in most X10 modules.

In my dimming wall switch module with an 18 LED lamp is 30% lit (intensity) when off, and 100% intensity when on.  In other words, I can't turn the light off unless I flip the module cutoff lever manually on the switch.  This shuts off the module alltogether.

My appliance module, AM486, which I was hoping would be the solution, bleeds light when off as well.  All 60 LEDs in my spotlight LED bulb were dimly lit (15%) when the appliance module (Polarized 2 pin) is off, and blinds me when it comes on.  The 18 LED and 35 LED Dome type LED modules behaved the same.  My experience is that it appears the more LEDs, the dimmer each LED is when the module is off.  The 18 LED bulb was about 30% lit when off.  I also noted my NEON design bulb (Red heart w/arrow) would blink when the module was off.  Not enough to color the whole tube when cold, but colored the whole tube when warm.   Not bright intensity though, but enough to ignite the gas.  It appears there is a capacitor in the LED bulbs removes the pulsing effect seen in the Neon & CFL lamps, which also keeps some of the LEDs dimly lit even after removing the bulb from the socket for a few moments.

TM751: transceiver module (with the antenna) emits light from LEDs when off. 
Behaves like appliance module.

LM465 dimming Lamp module: My CFL actually did blink - I hadn't noticed it until recently.
The LED bulbs are dimly lit when it is off.  There is not much difference between the higher % intensities of the dimmer modules, but after a few dim commands, it does work.  The 1st 3 dimm commands on my 60 LED spotlamp are barely noticeable, the 4th-6th are noticeable.
I can't tell when it reaches 0% or off because the bulb never goes out.  The intensity levels are not consistant per dimming keypress.  In the middle intensities there is some slightly noticeable flicker

Solution: Socket rockets seem to be the answer here, despite having the additional hassle
of programming them.  The rockets shut the LEDs all the way off. 

I used a TM751 RF transciever and learning remote to program mine.  Set TM751 to house code of choice for your rocket, program the remote in advance for rocket house & unit code, plug in the lamp already turned on, and send the light on command repeatedly from the remote as if it was already programmed.  This must be done in the 1st 30 seconds after the rocket first receives power.  Rockets are set to A1 out of the box.  Recommend programming rocket with incandescent bulb. 40W+ as per documentation+

We'll see if I have any problems with them...

Gizmo

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Brian H

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2006, 06:33:28 AM »

The 2 wire dimming switches steal their power from a small current through the load. That is why the LEDs light with that type switch.
Appliance modules use a local sensing current for local control. This also keeps the LEDs partially light. there are hacks for that problem. Also other brand of Appliance Modules use a much smaller current an your LEDs may or may not be almost off with them.
The socket rocket is what I have with a few CFLs with no problems, though as it uses a triac control element and not a mechanical switch. Some LEDs or CFLs could have a problem depending on brand and type.
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amigamax

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2006, 11:25:36 AM »



Is there an index or collection of these hacks? 

I would like to use 2 LED lamps with an appliance module on my entertainment center. 

Also is there posted anywhere how much current the modules use?

thanks!
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steven r

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2006, 12:10:18 PM »

...I would like to use 2 LED lamps with an appliance module on my entertainment center....
If that's all you need to do right now, you might want to try plugging in a small night light with the LED lamps. I've used that trick when I've needed to control some items. A plug in air freshener, particularly one of the new fan ones, might work also. Then you wouldn't need to hide the night light. Of course you would need to pick a pleasing fragrance which can be a challenge.
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stevebo

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 11:02:33 PM »

Super old thread, but I can confirm that Jan 2016 CREE LED bulbs don't work with my X10 dimmer, but Phillips LED bulbs do.
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racerfern

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 07:44:34 AM »

FWIW, I have Energetic Lighting BR30 dimmable LEDs that work flawlessly, from full bright down to barely a candle.
I also have Hyperion BR40 LEDs that work very well. They don't go down to a candle, probably down to 30% but for the rooms they're in it's fine since I don't need mood lighting in the kitchen or breakfast nook. They are all controlled by WS13A dimmer switches.
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dave w

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 05:57:48 PM »

FWIW, I have Energetic Lighting BR30 dimmable LEDs that work flawlessly,
Are the Energetics a store brand? Better question: where do you get them.

Thanks
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racerfern

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2016, 06:46:33 PM »

Searching for and getting a good price on LED bulbs could be a full time job. I refuse to pay so much for the bulbs that it becomes financially stupid to replace the existing incandescent bulbs.

The BR30s I bought at Woot.com. I check woot everyday since things pop up all the time. Woot is owned by Amazon.
http://tools.woot.com/offers/energetic-lighting-br30-12w-dim-4-pack
also
http://tools.woot.com/offers/4-250-watt-equivalent-led-shop-light-9

Amazon has great pricing at times. I watched four BR40 bulbs go from $54.80 for four to $69.89 for the same four over a two week period and then right back down.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=energetic+lighting+led
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RMK05Y2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01

So far I have about 24 BR40s (dimmable), 12 BR30s (dimmable), 2 - 48 inch shop lights, about a dozen plain old bulbs (dimmable) and 8 PAR38s (dimmable)
watch the color temperature! 3000k ideal for inside IMO. 2700k is more like mood lighting color regardless of the brightness and 4000k is interrogation quality as far as I'm concerned.
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Giacomo Marcozzi

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2016, 04:59:40 PM »

My entire home, inside and out, is all LED now. The only issues I had were with low wattage LEDs on the lamp control modules-- they flicker when off. Most of the time, you need a module with a relay. I have a few XPFM modules that have a relay, but will flicker the lamp if under 2W.

I've tried just about every LED out there and the best that I've used so far are the CREE branded ones and also Home Depot's house brand (Ecosmart).

A lot of the junk on Amazon and eBay are not even UL/CE approved. Stay away from the "corn lights" that you see everywhere!
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JeffVolp

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Re: X10 Compatibility with LED based lighting
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2016, 10:15:35 AM »

Stay away from the "corn lights" that you see everywhere!

Several years ago I converted all our landscape lighting over to LED.  Due the shape of the fixtures, the 12V "corn lights" were the best option to replace the bare 20W incandescent bulbs.  All are still working fine.  They are on the other side of a big 60Hz transformer, so that would be blocking any noise they might be generating.

About two years ago we also replaced all our aging CFL ceiling lights with the Feit PAR30 and BR30 LED lights sold by Costco.  They are bright, have a pleasing color, and generate no noise as measured on the XTBM.  All are still fine too.  The only downside is that they will not work an a 2-wire dimmer switch.

Jeff
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