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Author Topic: Can others disable my system?  (Read 64721 times)

BlueSky

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Can others disable my system?
« on: July 01, 2006, 04:52:44 PM »

I came across another thread recently where it is mentioned that anyone with an x10 keychain/remote control can easily disable your ds7000 security system. The claim is that there are only 256 codes, and within 10 minutes anyone with an x10 remote can lock onto your ds7000 code by simple trial and error.
Is this true?

 
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BlueSky

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2006, 06:32:17 PM »

hmmmm upon some further experimentation.... i was just able to take my security remote (not even programmed to my ds7000 frequency) and "jam" the signal of my motion sensors and door sensors by simply holding down any button on the remote!!!!!!!

Therefore, anyone wanting to break in needs only an x10 remote and tape a button down while in your yard.... and whammo..... your system will not detect any of the sensors being triggered.

yeesh.... had i known about this i sure would have looked much harder at a wired security system. This is very troubling.
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tom j

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2006, 01:07:31 AM »

hmmmm upon some further experimentation.... i was just able to take my security remote (not even programmed to my ds7000 frequency) and "jam" the signal of my motion sensors and door sensors by simply holding down any button on the remote!!!!!!!

Therefore, anyone wanting to break in needs only an x10 remote and tape a button down while in your yard.... and whammo..... your system will not detect any of the sensors being triggered.

yeesh.... had i known about this i sure would have looked much harder at a wired security system. This is very troubling.


Hmmmmmmm, well I tried this and this is what I found when I tried it the first time I was able to get by one of my motion detectors but thankfully the other two tripped I have three on the main floor. The second time I tried it I couldn't get pass any of them but I agree there is a potential problem here. Can't figure why I was able to get by my main sensor but not the other two unless it has something to do with the codes that were initially selected by the sensors. Say can someone else try this and report back? Now Mr. Sky  ;D I need you to do me a favor and look up my post on the "MS10a Serious Design Flaw" and see if you can duplicate problem I believe I discovered with the motion detectors.

Tcj
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 01:13:01 AM by tom j »
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Brian H

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2006, 06:40:33 AM »

Since X10s common RF Frequency; for all their devices is 310 MHz.[USA and Canada anyway]; I guess you could jam sensors and related devices with a remote.
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steven r

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2006, 09:24:49 AM »

Does the DS7000 not monitor the its wireless sensors?
My alarm system (not a DS7000) was installed after my house was built so I went with a wired doors and wireless windows sensors. While it might be possible to send a signal on its same frequency, each of the dozen or so sensors are individually registered and continuously monitored.
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Brian H

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2006, 12:35:53 PM »

I believe the DS7000 only gives a trouble indication if the sensor doesn't send a message every 4 hours that it is working.
The console has no transmitter in it to ask the sensor if it is ok and the sensors have on RF receivers in them to receive commands.
Wired in systems frequently have resistors on the sensor end. So if an open [cut wire] or a short [jumped sensor] will both trigger an alarm or trouble indication. Sounds like yours is even more sophisticated and polls them also.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 12:38:25 PM by Brian H »
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steven r

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2006, 03:47:40 PM »

...Sounds like yours is even more sophisticated and polls them also.
Well I could be wrong as to how often it checks or if it actually polls. It seemed to indicate trouble fairly quickly when one sensor got knocked loose one time, however.
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2006, 07:30:23 PM »

The DS10A Door/Window sensor sends a signal about every 70 minutes to let the system know it's alive.  The signal includes a low-battery indicator.
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tom j

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2006, 08:18:02 PM »

The DS10A Door/Window sensor sends a signal about every 70 minutes to let the system know it's alive.  The signal includes a low-battery indicator.

It's my understanding that this is not the case the only way you would know that there was a low battery is AFTER the sensor failed to report in, because the batteries are expired or either to low to for the signal to reach the console.

Tcj
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Charles Sullivan

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2006, 08:45:11 PM »

It's possible your system console does not process the low-battery indicator bit, but it _is_ included in the signal.  You can see it in the output of RF receivers like the WGL W800RF32A.  (It's also possible that the RF signal strength is sufficiently lowered at the level the low-battery indicator kicks in that it's no longer high enough to trigger a response in a distant console.)
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BlueSky

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2006, 12:17:13 AM »

tjc, so you say when you held down a button on your SH624 and attempted to open doors and walk past sensors while armed that the system triggered the alarm? I have tried several times and every time i was able to hold down the button and open my door sensor and walk around in front of the motion sensor while armed. Perhaps i will try to reset the door sensor and see if it works any better. I did a lot of google searching and only came across 1 reference to this, so hopefully it is just a potential problem but not a sure thing every time. If it is a big problem, we better delete this post and keep this quiet.  >:(
Can anyone else try this and post your findings? (i think we all need to do this to see if we truly are as secure as we think).

I have had my system running for a couple of weeks now in my garage and surrounding buildings. The motion sensor i have setup seems quite accurate in 1 step mode. In 2 step mode the mileage seemed to vary...... i was able to walk right up to it without triggering once, and was caught once. 1 Step mode seems to catch movement right away. To properly test this you need to let the motion sensor settle down for a minute or so before walking into its beam.
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tom j

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2006, 12:49:34 PM »

It's possible your system console does not process the low-battery indicator bit, but it _is_ included in the signal.  You can see it in the output of RF receivers like the WGL W800RF32A.  (It's also possible that the RF signal strength is sufficiently lowered at the level the low-battery indicator kicks in that it's no longer high enough to trigger a response in a distant console.)

I stand corrected I do believe that I did read somewhere that one of the other x10 consoles is capable of monitoring for a low battery signal but I was actually referring to the console that comes with the DS7000, I know for a fact it doesnt have this capability.

Tcj
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tom j

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2006, 01:04:39 PM »

tjc, so you say when you held down a button on your SH624 and attempted to open doors and walk past sensors while armed that the system triggered the alarm? I have tried several times and every time i was able to hold down the button and open my door sensor and walk around in front of the motion sensor while armed. Perhaps i will try to reset the door sensor and see if it works any better. I did a lot of google searching and only came across 1 reference to this, so hopefully it is just a potential problem but not a sure thing every time. If it is a big problem, we better delete this post and keep this quiet.  >:(
Can anyone else try this and post your findings? (i think we all need to do this to see if we truly are as secure as we think).

I have had my system running for a couple of weeks now in my garage and surrounding buildings. The motion sensor i have setup seems quite accurate in 1 step mode. In 2 step mode the mileage seemed to vary...... i was able to walk right up to it without triggering once, and was caught once. 1 Step mode seems to catch movement right away. To properly test this you need to let the motion sensor settle down for a minute or so before walking into its beam.

You know actually I didn't try the door window sensors just the motion detectors most of my door/window sensors are on window glass break detectors so I'll guess I'll try the basement door. I really don't think we have to worry about a general discussion, the average thief that would break into a house with an x10 system probably wouldn't have the sophistication to first acquire the hardware or the understanding to pull something like this off. I personally never tell anyone what kind of alarm system I have just for that reason. As a matter of fact I've just about got all my new DSC equipment and just now completing dropping all the wires in the basement, so even when this system is setup and operational I won't be telling anyone the manufacturer.Tthis is a hybrid system with wireless and hardwired components that are completely compatible with all my x10 equipment. I even be able to call into the unit from anywhere in the world and check the status of the system and control lights appliences ect.  Say Mr. Sky are you going to have time to check out my post to see if you can duplicate what I think I discovered?? Thanks

Tcj
« Last Edit: October 12, 2006, 12:15:33 AM by tom j »
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BlueSky

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2006, 05:56:38 PM »

Unfortunately, ANYONE with a security remote can bypass all of your window/door and motion sensors by simply continually holding down a button to jam the signal. It isn't exactly sophisticated since x10 security remotes are very easily obtainable and will work to defeat an x10 system. It's ok to pretend that nobody should know this, but the fact remains that it is very possible and ridiculously easy..... and I have lost all confidence in this system now that i know it can be easily bypassed.

If anyone does not believe me.... try it for yourself.

I am looking for a way now to act as a fail-safe in case anyone tries to jam the RF signal of the sensors. Are there any x10 camera devices that can be used for x10 security? A motion sensing camera or motion sensing floodlight that can trigger the ds7000 or even trigger another device hooked to a siren? Any other ideas to provide a fail-safe?

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Brian H

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Re: Can others disable my system?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2006, 06:40:17 PM »

Or any X10 RF remote; I would guess; as they also do the 310Mhz and can be held ON.
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