X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: paul warshawsky on April 10, 2007, 11:55:18 PM
-
Need some advice. For the past 3 years I have used a TM751 to control my dishwasher (the transceiver is out of view under the dishwasher and the dishwasher is plugged into it.) While cleaning under the dishwarsher I noticed scorch marks where the dishwasher plugs in - I have now removed it for fear of fire. I assume this relates to sparks when the appliance is turned on. I want to put a new module in that can handle the load of a standard dishwasher, but it cannot be turned on by turning the appliance off and on (as the AM466 is) because if the dishwasher is set, opening and closing the door will turn the module on. This sensing feature is built into a lot of X10 modules and I cannot tell which ones DO NOT have it. This was the advantage of the TM751 - it does not sense its appliance being turned off and on.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Paul Warshawsky
-
Go to this URL to see how to defeat local current sensing.
http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm#Defeating local current sensing
The mod for "newer" modules will probably be the one to use, unless you have an old module kicking around.
-
I've thought about doing this. So, in your opinion, the standard appliance timer should be enough (with respect to the electrical load) and I should modify it to disable local sensing?
Thanks,
Paul
-
The latching relay in the Appliance Module is the same as in the TM751. So if the 751 is arcing, the Appliance module will also. You might try using the Appliance module (or the 751) to control a relay and have the relay supply power to the dishwasher. A relay or contactor with 120AC coil will be simplest, otherwise you will need a transformer between the Appliance module and the relay.
However you might want to investigate why the TM751 is seeing high enough currents to arc. Are you turning OFF the module when the dishwasher is still in the drying cycle?
-
What about using an X10 20amp wall outlet????
-
One of the the great things about home automation is the variety of things that can be done and the things people want to do.
e.g. I have never had the desire or even thought of using X10 with my dishwasher. Even now the thought prompts the question "Why on earth would one want to do that?" At the same time I imagine some of my applications could possibly be perceived a weirder.
-
Even now the thought prompts the question "Why on earth would one want to do that?"
I assumed the OP has an older dishwasher, that doesn't have the ability to do a "delayed start" as many new models can do. ???
-
Even now the thought prompts the question "Why on earth would one want to do that?"
I assumed the OP has an older dishwasher, that doesn't have the ability to do a "delayed start" as many new models can do. ???
Ok that's a possibility.
I think at least some of the newer dishwashers have electronic controls which would be screwed up by killing power to them.
Anyway each to their own. I'm sure if there is a way to do it someone here will come up with an idea.
Also I'm pretty sure my use of a powered water cooling system for my pillow under X10 control is at least in the top 5 weird X10 applications so I can't be too critical of someone that wants to use X10 with their dishwasher.
-
...Also I'm pretty sure my use of a powered water cooling system for my pillow under X10 control is at least in the top 5 weird X10 applications so I can't be too critical of someone that wants to use X10 with their dishwasher.
PLEASE post some photos!
Many of us silently suffer with that same problem (hot pillows), especially with the warmer weather approaching those in the northern hemisphere.
-
...Also I'm pretty sure my use of a powered water cooling system for my pillow under X10 control is at least in the top 5 weird X10 applications so I can't be too critical of someone that wants to use X10 with their dishwasher.
PLEASE post some photos!
Well first I don't use it in the winter, second I'm not sure where one would go about finding the hart of the setup for which I'm sure my insurance company paid an exorbitant price and third you don't want to acquire the part the way I did.
How I got mine (condensed story): I fell about 20+ feet onto my driveway in Nov 2005 while putting up Christmas lights. One of the body parts that shattered was my left knee cap. After surgery, they explained there was a cooling pad (basically a vinyl pad with coils) wrapped next to my knee. Two tubes feed to a modified "6 pack" sized ice chest that had a water pump mounted inside. In the hospital they would fill it with ice and water. The controls cycle the water every few minutes through the tube to reduce inflammation. Basically I put the coils in my pillow and plugged the whole thing into an X10 box and wrote a few macros to turn it on. Most summer evenings just water without ice is fine.
Check http://www.ebimedical.com/products/detail.cfm?p=0E0F or http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article2087.html for a picture.
-
Dave,
I am not turning the module off while the dishwasher is still drying (I know this because the timer dial is in the off position in the morining, meaning the cycle was complete before the module switched off.) I assume that the start of the cycle also draws quite a bit of power. As I say this has worked for several years (goes off several times per month) without trouble. I don't know if the scorch makes are from repetitive arcing or if there was one bad arc.
If the Appliance module is going to have the same problem then what about the suggestion of using one of the appliance modules with a higher rating? (Heavy-duty) Does anyone (Walt2) know if these have local sensing and if the local sensing can be disabled? I'm not keen to start building my own solutions - this is a bit outside of my comfort zone.
For those who are curious (steven r) I am an observant Jew and don't use electrical appliances on the Sabbath. This allows me to load my dishwasher Friday night and have clean dishes Saturday morning. Since I already have the timer setup, I use it during the week as well so the dishwasher runs in the middle of the night without distubing anyone and also during off-peak times for electricity. The delay timer can also do that but not as reliably and you have to remember to set it before going to bed instead of after dinner.
Thanks all for the suggestions.
Paul
-
...For those who are curious (steven r) I am an observant Jew and don't use electrical appliances on the Sabbath. This allows me to load my dishwasher Friday night and have clean dishes Saturday morning...
Thanks for solving my curiosity and very clever idea to help you observe the Sabbath.
-
Dave,
If the Appliance module is going to have the same problem then what about the suggestion of using one of the appliance modules with a higher rating? (Heavy-duty) Does anyone (Walt2) know if these have local sensing and if the local sensing can be disabled?
The 20 amp has local sensing. I am sure it can be disabled, guessing X10 uses essentially the same circuit design everywhere they can. But can't help with the parts position or description...Walt you any help here?
-
For a simple "Cure All" to this problem, Just power a Good Relay from a standard module. This automatically disables the sensing because you no longer are disconnecting the relay when opening the door. Also the relay will handle the power much better.
If the standard module handled the dishwasher for a while, it could be that it turned on or off while the dry cycle was active. That would be enough current to scorch the contacts. ANY switch can handle more pass through current that it can switch on and off.
If you have any trouble figuring how to connect a relay to a standard module, I'm sure there are many people here that can help. I'll draw up a simple print, but that might or might not help. I am in the habit of never modifing modules if I can help it so there is never a question of UL or other standards being broken. (Insurance, etc.) I currently have a 60A 220V supply to the garage controlled by a standard module so I can cut power if I forget, without going out to the garage.
-
Dave or Art,
So lets say I go the relay/contactor route (everytime I see how much the module melted I think this might be wise)... What kind of specs would you suggest for the relay? I agree with 120 VAC - I don't want to have to put a power supply in as well. I assume I then "break" the live wire with the relay and wire the neutral of the diswasher directly to the wall, is this corret?
Thanks,
Paul
-
Dave or Art,
So lets say I go the relay/contactor route (everytime I see how much the module melted I think this might be wise)... What kind of specs would you suggest for the relay? I agree with 120 VAC - I don't want to have to put a power supply in as well. I assume I then "break" the live wire with the relay and wire the neutral of the diswasher directly to the wall, is this corret?
Thanks,
Paul
Dave or Art will give you the relay specs. I wanted to add my two cents worth about using a metal not plastic project box to mount the realay. In fact I would reccomend a rounded edge 2x4 metal electrical box with a matching blank metal cover plate. You'll have to cut out the opening for the relay but it's worth the effort in safety.
-
Just for the "Safety" of it, I would recomend a 20 amp relay. Just run the coil to a standard Plug (No polarity required). As Oldtimer states, putting the relay in a metal box is a good idea, but if the relay is small enough to fit inside, no cutting of the box would be required. Just use insulated crimp-on connectors. (I like solder and heat-shrink, but insulated crimp-ons would be OK.) If the relay only has one contact, connect as you stated. Run the neutral through and break the hot. If the relay has two contacts, feel free to break both lines. Only the Ground MUST be directly connected.
Little Note: Verify the size of the Fuse/Circuit Breaker powering the dishwasher and make sure the Relay can handle at least that many Amps. 20 Amp relays are common and most dishwashers run on 15 Amp service in older homes, but newer homes will have 20 Amp service. If there is a true short in the dishwasher, and the relay turns on the power to this true short, the relay will probably arc weld itself on anyway, but it will safely conduct the current long enough for the breaker to trip. Then it will need to be replaced, but seeing that the dishwasher had to be shorted for this to happen, replacing the relay is a minor concern for after replacing the dishwasher.... (With Home electrical, I always try to think of worst case. If it happens when no-one is home, you want it to handle the problem, no matter what)
If I can be of any further help, just let me know. Also, if I have missed anything that anyone else considers even slightly noteworthy, please comment here ASAP. Better to get all the possible input beforehand. (I'm sure there are specific codes that should be observed, but without getting the exact location, and then reading/researching, I am not qualified to comment on those. I assume the metal box should be mounted, Must be Grounded, have correct cable clamps, etc.)
Good Luck
Art.
-
I have (new) danby portable washer and countertop dishwasher. <stainless steel interiors>.
Unlike the very quiet washer, the dishwasher sounds like an unlimited hydroplane boat
With the 6 A draw (it is heating water too), I put it on a standard 3 prong appliance module. X10 > surge suppressor > dishwasher.
I have a macro I manually trigger when I want to wash dishes in the middle of the night. (delay to early am).
With only 40 A of service <live P/T in Mexico>, it really helps manage peak power usage, and I don't have to heart the countertop "thunderboat".
Danby uses old-fashioned 'clock' motors to run their stuff...
What a great use for such an odd receiving module....
-
Paul
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/RLY-482/500/120_VAC,_40_AMP_RELAY_.html
or
pararallel both N.O. contacts on this relay
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/RLY-453/500/120_VAC_RELAY,_DPDT_12_AMPS_.html
-
pararallel both N.O. contacts on this relay
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/RLY-453/500/120_VAC_RELAY,_DPDT_12_AMPS_.html
Theoretically this should work but as a practical matter it may not since the two contacts may not actually break/make at exactly the same instant.
-
That shouldn't be a problem since in the thread, Paul states he is not making or breaking during periods of high current. If Paul is turning OFF during the dry cycle, then yes, he should go with the higher capacity relay, OR try and find a small contactor instead.
-
Instead of using a 120V relay with an appliance module, another option all together would be to use an ACT RF124 - 20A In-Line Relay Fixture Module (http://www.act-solutions.com/pdfs/PCCInst/RF124_instr%20.pdf). I trust ACT to be able to handle the maximum load. It has isolated contacts, so one blue wire will have to be connected to hot (along with the black wire) and the other will be connected to the load.
You can get it from Automated Outlet (http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php?productid=705&cat=30&page=1).