X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: LarCrowl on August 14, 2009, 08:09:17 PM
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I've been successfully using my X-10 hadware for many years and have encountered a few anomolies that were difficult to analyze and fix. This one has me stumped. On a system that has 20 or so circuit breakers and as many X10 modules I only have a problem with those on one specific ciruit breaker which is on a different breaker but on the same phase as the computer interface module although I do have phase coupling capacitors installed. All of the modules are controlling lights although those that control CFLs use appliance modules.
The problem ONLY exists when the on/off command is sent by the computer or the stored program controller whether from a timed event or from an ad hoc command In contrast all modules respond satifactorily when a command is issued from a hardwired mini controller or transceiver.
Actually I have two different computer interfaces one is an X-10 Pro controlled n by Activehome Pro software and the other is an Smarthome unit controlled by HomeSeer Software. They control the same modules on slightly different schedules in a prime and backup arrangement. I've been using this setup for over a year without any previous problems.
I have cycled my breakers sereral times thinking that possibly some corrosion in the breaker contacts might be involved but that didn't seem to help. I have rebooted the computer and that seemed to help for a day or so and then it went sour again so I've not been abled to say that helped. Any ideas?
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Attenuation of the voltage of the signal burst do to inductance of an extraordinary long wire run from the breaker?
Sorry for the humor, I've been caught up in the banter of Jeff Volp, Boiler and Dave W.
You could possibly be suffering from a weak signal on the branch line. Some x10 controllers send out a stronger signal than others. Maybe you should consider looking at some of Jeff Volp's posts and look into his repeater for x10.
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I only have a problem with those on one specific ciruit breaker which is on a different breaker but on the same phase as the computer interface module although I do have phase coupling capacitors installed. All of the modules are controlling lights although those that control CFLs use appliance modules.
Not difficult, something is getting noisy. Some contributor (Maybe Jeff V) recounts of a CFL which suddenly became noisy and interferered with an X10 home that had been working fine. One at a time start unplugging and turning off everythig on the branch until things start working.
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My guess is something on that circuit is either loading down the signal or is generating noise. Since the mini controller works, it sounds like a marginal signal to noise ratio. The mini controller may put out a little more signal than your other controllers, or perhaps is a bit closer to the distribution panel.
BTW, that was a 120V LED lamp that began generating horrendous noise. But I have a set of CFL noisemakers that do OK in that department too.
As a test, swap out any CFLs on that circut to see if you can identify the culprit.
Jeff
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Attenuation of the voltage of the signal burst do to inductance of an extraordinary long wire run from the breaker?
Sorry for the humor, I've been caught up in the banter of Jeff Volp, Boiler and Dave W.
Coming off a bit too "high brow" are we?
Maybe I should post a photograph to assure people that this isn't the case?
Boiler
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I've been successfully using my X-10 hadware for many years...
JeffVolp, dave w, Knightrider... I agree with each and everyone of you... as [I bet] LarCrowl does also being an experienced X10 user.
But [I thought] the question asked when a established setup developed a problem was... what changed.
I know X10 modules are signal absorbers. LarCrowl says all the modules control lights... could a wife or even LarCrowl moved a lamp to a different socket and placed the [signal sucking] straw that broke X10's back.. on that circuit?
Or [my guess] LarCrowl should do the usual walk-through looking for the usual noise making culprits... like cell phone charges, or any similar device that uses a lightweight wall-wart charger. But I would be thinking [again] as to whats NEW. Even if that new battery operated line trimmer (that's in the garage) isn't plugged into the problem circuit... if its new.. I'd concider it a possible cause.
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Make sure that your AHP recycle bin in completely empty. Then clear the cm15 and reload download timers and macros.
This is just a suggestion. I have found out that if you play with macros and timers (create and delete alot) that sometimes it interferes with the cm15. I've done this several times and completed the above steps and the problem cleared up. Actually someone else just had a similar problem and it cleared up for him too!
Hope this helps. ;)
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I know X10 modules are signal absorbers. LarCrowl says all the modules control lights... could a wife or even LarCrowl moved a lamp to a different socket and placed the [signal sucking] straw that broke X10's back.. on that circuit?
It was enlightening when I first got my ESM1 to walk around the house and find out how poor the signal levels really were. I tried to keep a clean environment for X10 with all X10 modules on one phase and electronic devices pretty much segregated on their own filtered 20A circuit. However, one circuit feeding nine X10 devices read only .1Vpp signal. That is definitely marginal, and it wouldn't have taken much more attenuation before I would have had reliability problems on that circuit. That's why I developed the XTB for myself in the first place.
Jeff
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... It was enlightening when I first got my ESM1 to walk around the house and find out how poor the signal levels really were.... That's why I developed the XTB....
I fooled around with a phase issue and TM751's plugged in here and there along with a CM11A... for way too long. Getting and modifying the the CM15A and fixing my phase issue is what made my X10 FUN. If I was to rebuild I would definitely get the XTB. Actually... I just ordered 8 more appliance modules... and I know I am temping fate.
Reading these posts about an established setup.... gone bad... is heart breaking (or is the word scary?).
Make sure that your AHP recycle bin in completely empty. Then clear the cm15 and reload download timers and macros.
hawk1 is insightful. My last problem... was a macro error.. I create myself. Switching back to the older AHX file then re-writting the macro (and emptying the recycle bin) was all that was needed.
What has changed... can easily be your AHX file.
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The problem ONLY exists when the on/off command is sent by the computer or the stored program controller whether from a timed event or from an ad hoc command In contrast all modules respond satifactorily when a command is issued from a hardwired mini controller or transceiver.
Actually I have two different computer interfaces one is an X-10 Pro controlled n by Activehome Pro software and the other is an Smarthome unit controlled by HomeSeer Software. They control the same modules on slightly different schedules in a prime and backup arrangement. I've been using this setup for over a year without any previous problems.
As others have indicated, something has changed in the signal path between your CM15a and the lighting circuit. The fact that your transceiver/mini controller still function could be due to:
- Different output levels at the devices: X10 Device Output Voltage (http://davehouston.net/x10-sig.htm)
- A different signal path - the transceiver/mini controller are installed on a different circuit and therefore pass through different loads
Your home wiring exhibits an impedance (complex form of resistance) at the X10 frequency of operation (120Khz). Because of this impedance, any load placed on a circuit acts as a voltage divider and reduces the X10 level. This includes incandescent lighting, resistive heaters, inductive motors, and cheap switching power supplies. Of these devices, the switching power supplies tend to be the worst as they will many times use a 0.1 uf capacitor for EMC suppression. This capacitor looks like a 16 ohm load at X10 frequencies and can really attenuate signals.
The following is an example of two circuits in my family room. The top circuit is the lighting circuit with mostly incandescent loads. The lower circuit is the outlet circuit with two 60W loads with my A/V center between. V2 is a simple voltage source representing my controller which is mounted at the load panel.
(http://boiler.ucoz.com/Geocities/Powerline/Lighting_1.jpg)
From the above -
- The line lengths of the lighting and outlet circuits are roughly the same. The 12-2 wiring will exhibit similar impedance.
- The J box outlets will themselves contribute to the line impedance (1.5 uH per connection)
- Although the lighting circuit appears more heavily loaded (6 lamps and a Fan), it performs flawlessly.
- On the outlet circuit, the A/V devices (Wii adaptor, Wii remote charger, etc) use EMC caps that absorb the X10 (appear as a low impedance to neutral). Since these devices are in parrallel the capacitance "adds" and the load is modeled as 0.5 uF. The 115uH inductor is actually a Leviton filter that was added to isolate these loads and restore the signal level. Without the filter, X10 levels on this line were under 100mv.
- Moving the controller away from the panel will change the signal path and therefor change the signal level available at the various locations. This may be why your Transceiver can communicate with your problem circuit while your controller cannot. They are taking different paths to get there.
The above does not take into account noise sources, only absorption. Every circuit has noise. As signal level is reduced (signal to noise ratio is reduced) you will become more susceptible to noise corruption. This is where the ELK ESM1 can really pay off by measuring both background noise as well as X10 level. In your application, it should show a significant difference in the levels available from your transceiver vs the controller.
You can certainly troubleshoot this by removing possible loads and testing the results (inspection method). The Elk ESM1 just makes this process quicker. You might start by moving the CM15a to the same outlet as the Transceiver. If you still have problems communicating with the CM15a, the transceiver may simply have a higher output level (see link above).
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Boiler,
I truly enjoy reading the explanations that you, and Jeff Volp, and Dave W. put countless hours into, just for the sake of education at these forums. Please keep up the good work!
Thank You!!!!!
P.S. I bet you make Uncle Phil proud.
P.P.S. Isn't the above post just a reiteration of what I previously stated? rofl
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Gee Boiler, that is similar to the simulations I ran when designing the XTB-II output stage. I used several parallel circuits on each phase with different lengths and loading. And I sprinkled around a few capacitors to simulate distributed capacitance and signal suckers. The powerline works very well at 60Hz, but becomes a very complex distribution network at 120KHz.
The discontinued ESM1 does display powerline noise. However, its sensitivity to noise isn't that good. For example, that infamous Cellet charger can block most transmissions on a circuit, but the ESM1 displays only one flickering bar from that unit. The multi-CFL "noisemaker" I use for testing the XTB-IIR AGC generates a lot of in-band noise, but doesn't even light up one bar on the ESM1. Basically, if the ESM1 shows even one bar of noise, that circuit is probably toast for X10 control.
Jeff
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P.S. I bet you make Uncle Phil proud.
High praise indeed - I'm blushing.
I actually developed this for my mixed Insteon/X10 system. The controller is a Insteon PLM which is rated at 3.2V P-P into 8 Ohms. Works fine for Insteon since each of the modules "repeat" the communication. Not the greatest output level for X10.
My problem started when I began finishing the basement and we moved the Kids Wii equipment upstairs. The Wii stuff had not caused a problem in the basement, but then the line length to the load panel was on the order of 20 feet. When installed on my family room circuit, this same equipment stopped X10 in its tracks.
Lessons from the above:
- A heavy load may or may not be a problem depending on where it's installed. 12-2 cable exhibits roughly 1 ohm impedance (at 120 Khz) per 10 feet. A .1 uf EMC cap resembles a 13 ohm load at 120 Khz (ignoring the phase). At 30 feet you'll have a divider network Vo/Vi = EMC/(EMC+Line) = 13/(13 + 3) = 0.8125 V/V. At 100 feet this becomes Vo/Vi = 13/(13 + 10) = 0.56 V/V. Note that J boxes also contribute to the series impedance (significantly). Note also that, since this is a series circuit, effects are additive (multiple signal absorbers along a line will add)
- Due to the series impedance of the powerline, all loads act as a voltage divider. Incandescent bulbs, when switched on, will produce a divider network. A 60W bulb (~240 ohms @ steady state) will load the line according to the Vo/Vi equation above. A heavily loaded line (1100W ~ 13 ohms) will produce similar loading as the 0.1uf EMC cap. The message here is that your powerline is constantly changing as you switch on/off loads.
- I'm always amazed at the amount of wire in a room. My diagrams show 210' of wire for a 16' X 20' room. Sounds like a lot, but I've probably underestimated. This room has no solid wall due to sliding doors, entryways, fireplace. As a result, wall plugs that are 8' apart require 30' of wire (up and over entries) to connect them.
I'll confess that I did the above for myself to try to understand the problem I was having. Hope it help others understand how easily line loading problems can occur with seemingly innocuous changes.
One last item - the above does not address phase coupling. This can easily be the largest loss in a system (~ 40 db loss through the utility transformer).
One last, last item - I recently installed one of Jeff Volps XTBr's at my phase coupler. I've removed the filter from the A/V components and verified that I still have adequate signal level. Two distinctly different approaches, filtering vs installing a high power repeater.
Boiler
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Gee Boiler, that is similar to the simulations I ran when designing the XTB-II output stage. I used several parallel circuits on each phase with different lengths and loading. And I sprinkled around a few capacitors to simulate distributed capacitance and signal suckers. The powerline works very well at 60Hz, but becomes a very complex distribution network at 120KHz.
I agree things can get very complex very quickly using L-C distributed components. I'm guilty of "simplifying" complex impedances with real equivalents (ignoring phase).
One of the things that I am lacking is a good output stage model. I played with this for awhile, but my results were less than satisfactory. Would you be able to provide models for your XTB and perhaps the CM15 or CM11? I have schematics for both the CM15a and CM11a but lack the spec's on the output transformer.
The discontinued ESM1 does display powerline noise. However, its sensitivity to noise isn't that good. For example, that infamous Cellet charger can block most transmissions on a circuit, but the ESM1 displays only one flickering bar from that unit. The multi-CFL "noisemaker" I use for testing the XTB-IIR AGC generates a lot of in-band noise, but doesn't even light up one bar on the ESM1. Basically, if the ESM1 shows even one bar of noise, that circuit is probably toast for X10 control.
I'll agree that the ESM1 can provide both false positives and negatives (noise). I have a Leviton HPCRF that will light up 1-2 bars on the ESM1 with no appreciable effect on communications (haven't put my Oscilloscope on this). It is, nonetheless, a simple plug in tool for verifying both X10 signal level and valid X10 communication. Where is shines is in comparison testing of different circuits.
As you yourself have noted, quantifying noise is a rather complex issue. Units react very differently when presented with continuous, impulse, and transient noise. The issue of where the noise is occurring (relative to the zero crossing) also interacts with the X10 modules AGC. Since all AGC circuits are not created equal (I'm still a bit suspicious of the Smarthome firmware based AGC) this further confounds analysis.
Being a lazy person at heart, I continue to reach for my ESM1 when I have a question regarding noise/level. If that doesn't answer the question, only then will I break out the oscilloscope. Of course, I am looking forward to upgrading the ESM1 when a particular member of this forum releases his analyzer. Maybe then I can leave my oscilloscope at work (where it's rapidly becoming communal property).
Boiler
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Many thanks to all of you for your advice. I had recently bought a new TV and temporarly installed it in another room that was on the same circuit that my old TV is still attached to. In the process I moved my cable box and my DVD to the new TV in order to check it all out. When I unplugged the power strip that I had it all connected to my problem disapeared. Aha, it must be the new TV or the cable box. Wrong, So I finally unplgged the DVD player and my problem disappeared. Thinking it must be the DVD causing the problem I plugged the TV and cable box back in but the problem returned. It seems that anything plugged in to the power strip casues the problem to appear. It seems the powr strip is the problem. I guess I need a filter or a new power strip or maybe an XTB.
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How about only the surge strip alone?
If the surge strip has a filter in it. It could be absorbing X10 power line signals. As to many of them the X10 120KHz signal is noise.
I have a filter on my APC BX1000 UPS and my power strip for the LCD TV and all of the assorted goodies connected to it.
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Would you be able to provide models for your XTB and perhaps the CM15 or CM11?
The XTB class C output stage is coupled to the powerline through a series-resonant circuit (.22uF & 8.2uH). The XTB-IIR has two coupling networks from the power stage, which also forms a passive coupling network between the phases.
Sorry, but I don't have any info on the X10 devices.
Jeff
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It seems that anything plugged in to the power strip causes the problem to appear. It seems the power strip is the problem. I guess I need a filter or a new power strip or maybe an XTB.
Power strips with surge protection can indeed be signal suckers, and cause problems for X10 communications. However, it may also be that you have marginal signal levels, and ANY additional load drops the signal level too low for reliable operation.
A first step would be to isolate that power strip from the powerline with an inexpensive X10 XPPF filter.
Jeff
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Many thanks to all of you for your advice. I had recently bought a new TV and temporarly installed it in another room that was on the same circuit that my old TV is still attached to. In the process I moved my cable box and my DVD to the new TV in order to check it all out. When I unplugged the power strip that I had it all connected to my problem disapeared. Aha, it must be the new TV or the cable box. Wrong, So I finally unplgged the DVD player and my problem disappeared. Thinking it must be the DVD causing the problem I plugged the TV and cable box back in but the problem returned. It seems that anything plugged in to the power strip casues the problem to appear. It seems the powr strip is the problem. I guess I need a filter or a new power strip or maybe an XTB.
"Thereyago" (Common Midwest and Southern US term, used a universal explaination for all)
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...I had recently bought a new TV and temporarly installed it in another room that was on the same circuit
......... It seems the powr strip is the problem. I guess I need a filter or a new power strip or maybe an XTB.
A powerstrip... with maybe a flickering little red light?
I'd carry the powerstrip into the garage, cut off it's cord, and throw it in the trash (cutting off the cord assures me the wife won't find a perfectly good device... and rescue it). Then I'd look around... to see if I had another one just like it in use somewhere. Some of the power cords are nightmares.
It's temping and I am sure natural... after a setup has worked flawlessly for so long... to take X10 for granted. Parts of my home aren't used everyday. Some of my cameras can go weeks without being viewed. A problem can arise... yet not be noticed right away. I try to keep an eye opened to changes. I recently replaced some outside light fixtures... and used some LED bulbs in a couple lights. Afterwards I ran some tests, Voice Commanding (http://www.wgjohns.com/bvc.htm) on some lights and devices while the new lights were on.
Glad things are back to normal for you!!!
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I'd carry the powerstrip into the garage, cut off it's cord, and throw it in the trash
:'( aarrrg!
Dave you just fell off the pedestal I had placed you on.
Knowing your skills, I would have at least expected you to "Dremel" that strip apart and cut out all those caps.