X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: Direwolf on November 30, 2007, 01:36:18 PM
-
Hello all,
Let me first start off by saying a co-worker referred me to the site. I have been interested in automating portions of my home. I have recently started doing some research on the subject and realized that there are alot of choices to be made. My head is spinning just trying to figure out what is what. So I thought I would come here and look for some recommendations.
Alittle about what I want to do. I want to start small and be able to expand over time. Where I would like to start is by automating my pool pump to come on and go off at specific times of the day. I know that this should be a fairly simple task to accomplish. But looking at all the different manufactures I don't know where to start.
Reading through lots of information, I have narrowed my selections down to these: X-10, Insteon, and Z-wave.
What I would like to have is a controller that can be programmed through the PC, but the PC does not have to be on all the time. I would like to have a relatively fast response time (I know that this is subjective).
After talking with my co-worker about his set up (he is using X-10 stuff) he said that he has had some reliability issues. Such as commands not always making it through. From what I have read, this seems to be common with X-10. There will be alot more troubleshooting the system to get it to function correctly (filters and couplers).
The Insteon stuff sounds like where I want to be, but I can't seem to find a controller and software for their stuff that doesn't require the PC to be on all the time. It also seems that this is a newer technology and not in high support (unless I missed something somewhere).
The Z-Wave product sounds like it is the most robust, but at a higher cost. And again I can't seem to find a controller and software for this.
Basically what I am looking for is what/where would you all recommend I start? I don't have thousands of dollars lying around, and would like to try and keep it cheaper. I am not opposed to paying a higher price, if you get more bang for your buck.
Thank you in advance,
Dire
-
Dire,
Welcome to the forum.
You're absolutely correct that the number of options in HA is confusing at best. I currently have both Insteon and X10 devices installed in my home. Like you, I refuse to dedicate a PC to HA 24/7. Until recently there was no "credible" controller for the Insteon devices that did not require a connected PC.
2 weeks ago I purchased a Universal Devices ISY-26 stand alone interface. In short, I love it. In two days time I've been able to replicate my extremely complex X10 system in Insteon (far simpler and straight forward). By comparison, my X10 system took weeks to setup and troubleshoot.
The downside - the ISY-26 ain't cheap.
The Insteon devices are quicker, and less prone to noise problems, but they are by no means immune. Having worked with X10 for years, I view the noise issue to be minor with Insteon. You will need filters for some devices.
Here's another thread in process regarding a Insteon installation. Please post any questions in your current thread.
Link: Remodel Problems (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14064.msg78096#msg78096)
Boiler
-
Thank you for the reply Boiler.
But might you be able to recommend a starting point for the project I would like to take on? Would it be advisable to just by a powerline coupler and an appliance module? If I did that could I get any sort of control out of it? Would I have to get some sort of remote? How would one set up that small network? Any recommendations over X-10 vs Insteon vs Z-Wave?
I liked the sound of the ISY-26 module and think that would be what I would eventually get. Or maybe that would be the starting point and then add to it as I move farther into it? It's just hard to justify that kind of expense for a pool pump if you know what I mean.
Anyways, thanks for your time.
Dire
-
.........
What I would like to have is a controller that can be programmed through the PC, but the PC does not have to be on all the time..........
Dire,
......... Like you, I refuse to dedicate a PC to HA 24/7. Until recently there was no "credible" controller for the Insteon devices that did not require a connected PC............
Welcome to the forum Direwolf.
Hope I am not too far off topic here.... I too hesitated to run a dedicated Home Automation computer 24/7. But found I was just plain.. giving up too much.. for no reason. I now use a curb-side quality (that means discarded) P3. I bumped-up it's RAM with a used strip I bought at a flea market. And yes I have a complete (P2) standing-by ready to take it's place. And after Christmas..... I may just circle the neighborhood on trash pick-up day.
Computers aren't what they used to be... and they can do SO MUCH for home automation.
-
...But might you be able to recommend a starting point for the project I would like to take on? Would it be advisable to just by a powerline coupler and an appliance module? If I did that could I get any sort of control out of it? Would I have to get some sort of remote? How would one set up that small network? Any recommendations over X-10 vs Insteon vs Z-Wave?
I liked the sound of the ISY-26 module and think that would be what I would eventually get. Or maybe that would be the starting point and then add to it as I move farther into it? It's just hard to justify that kind of expense for a pool pump if you know what I mean.
Dire,
I agree with the "start slowly and build up the system" approach. That's really how I got into the game.
You mentioned your pool pump. What would you like to do with it? Schedule On/Off times so that it runs every day for XX hours?
If your pump is currently controlled by a wall switch, this could be replaced with a relay switch (X10 or Insteon) and interfaced to a "mini timer". This would allow you to schedule on/off times for your pump.
Other applications could be:
- Turning outside lamps on at dusk and off at a scheduled time
- Activating a "wake up" light - I use this for the kids.
- Motion activated lights - I use this in hallways and stairways
Those are some of the "basics". It grows geometrically from there.
I'd agree that the ISY-26 would probably be "overkill" at this stage. It sounds like you'd rather get your feet wet before going off the "high dive". X10 devices are very cost effective. If you can plan your installation so that all of your devices are on the same phase, you may be able to get by without a signal coupler.
Whichever you choose (Insteon or X10) be forwarned that this stuff can be addictive (spoken as a true addict).
Almost forgot - any CFL's in the house? If so you will want to watch for possible interference.
Hope I am not too far off topic here.... I too hesitated to run a dedicated Home Automation computer 24/7. But found I was just plain.. giving up too much.. for no reason. I now use a curb-side quality (that means discarded) P3. I bumped-up it's RAM with a used strip I bought at a flea market. And yes I have a complete (P2) standing-by ready to take it's place. And after Christmas..... I may just circle the neighborhood on trash pick-up day.
Dave,
I don't think your post was off topic. We simply have different opinions on the matter. I don't use cameras or BVXC and choose to have my HA on a standalone system. To be honest, I wouldn't trust my HA to a windows platform while I'm on vacation or a business trip for two weeks. I do have a Linux server that runs 24/7, but it's purpose in life is being a server/gateway. I won't compromise that function with a HA application. My $.02.
Boiler
-
Dave_x10_L,
My turn to take the thread sideways.
In the clear light of day, my previous reply seems a bit "snippy". I apologize, it wasn't intended that way.
Roughly 2 years ago I was running 3 old AT boxes (K5 and K6's - I was an AMD fan) that were dedicated to various tasks. After automating various lighting and other functions to reduce my electric bill I realized that I wasn't making much headway. Finally twigged to the fact that my "Old dog" PC's were costing me a ton. These units were consuming ~ 180 W of real power 24/7 and basically erasing my automation power savings.
Enter the CM15a and newer ATX power supplies/mother boards with power saving options. The CM15a gave me the ability to run my automation without the PC erasing the power savings. The newer PC's (homebuilt) have very nice power options that automatically conserve power and automatically shut down at night. I do have some comparison numbers on various devices that I was hoping to post at some time (still measuring). As I'm composing this, my Intel Core2 duo system (yes a home built again) is consuming 48W of real power (hard drives shut down, fans at a minimum, cpu idling).
While I applaud your resourcefulness in reusing the old technology, keep in mind that these old PC's were power hogs. Much like an old refrigerator, there comes a time when they simply consume more power than they are worth.
Boiler
-
While I applaud your resourcefulness in reusing the old technology, keep in mind that these old PC's were power hogs. Much like an old refrigerator, there comes a time when they simply consume more power than they are worth.
Your SO RIGHT! And you didn't hurt my feelings.
I do sorta look at today's HA as the "crystal radio" days of Home Automation. I don't attempt to save money (or energy) with HA... although I know many do. I use HA for the FUN of it mostly, and the security is an added bonus.
I truly believe at some point in the not too distant future... the flash-drive, multi-core processor HA computer... will be mounted to the back of a touchscreen display. The PC/display will also show (and record) video as well as email and FTP alerts, and fill-in as a speaker-phone. It will certainly respond to my voice, and have some AI capability's too. When not being "used" as a touch-screen the display will likely look like a picture (or maybe even a mirror). It's battery back-up will be a single lithium battery... also on the back.
But I am just a tad too old to wait for that upgrade to come out. So... I am plugging along.... using some of the last century technology... and getting some of the next.
-
Boiler,
You are correct. I would like my pool pump to run XX hours a day everyday. How ever it is not controlled by a switch. I have to get up every morning and walk outside to plug it in. And then in the evening when I get home from work I have to walk outside again and unplug the pump. The other thought with this is when we are gone for an extended period of time, I can't run the pump and it tends to cause some water problems. So I am looking for a way to control this systematically. I am not sure which "side" of the power line this circuit is on which is why I mentioned getting a coupler. Plus this just seem logical to me for future growth. Might as well do it up front and already have it in place for future expansion.
I was looking at the Insteon Powerlinc Controller, but again it appears that this item would require a PC running 24/7 to support the timer function that I would need for the Pump. So that brings me back to an X-10 controller. In my opinion this just seems like a step backwards. What good is a controller if you get no feedback from the device that you are trying to control? (As a side note, I am a controls engineer and have worked with this kind of setup before. I hate it when you tell something to do something, but because there is no feedback, you never know if it actually happened.) Does this seem like I am thinking of it the right way? Or are the X-10 devices reliable enough to say, once you tell it to turn on, it is on?
My other option that I have been considering is this (http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_as_wow_kit_0924.html). This is what the other guy here at work has been using and says that it works, but is crude....... Would this be a better option? As I stated before, all the option is mind boggling. Just trying to figure out the best way to start without having to spend thousands of dollars, but still keep my system upgradeable.
Thanks again for all your help,
Dire
I forgot to mention that I have 2 CFL's in the garage. These can easily be swapped back to "normal" bulbs if needed to be.
-
....My other option that I have been considering is this (http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_as_wow_kit_0924.html). This is what the other guy here at work has been using and says that it works, but is crude.......
I do not consider the AHP / CM15A package to be crude at all. In fact, it is the best home automation package for the money!
The offer in your link is a good value and offers you the most room for expansion.
Honoring the KISS principle I feel a simple mechanical timer, assuming you can protect if from the elements, as well as the X10 mini timer (http://www.x10.com/promotions/mt12a_ed_premiere_0912.html) would work as well.
For both X10 options, I'd recommend installing an X10 outlet. There are several at the bottom of this page (http://www.x10.com/activehomepro/switches.html). The pro modules will be more reliable and worth the few extra bucks. Be sure and get one that meets your voltage and amperage requirements.
-
Direwolf,
Nice to meet another controls type. I've been designing aerospace fuel controls systems for 30 years. As you said, if it didn't do what we told it to do we want to know about it (now!). If a problem is non-critical we'll begin setting health flags. Otherwise backup channels and failsafe systems begin to kick in.
There's really no equiavlent to this with powerline automation. The powerline itself is the weak link. The devices we plug into the powerline generate noise and/or absorb X10 and Insteon signals. If there is enough noise/absorption the system fails. There is no backup other than re-trying the communication.
Insteon improves on the X10 communication protocol in a few ways:
- Each transmission is encoded with a CRC for error checking by receivers.
- All Insteon devices that "hear" a message will repeat the message (0 - 3 times) as commanded by the controller.
- Receivers transmit an ackowledge upon receiving a valid tranmission (your feedback). This is only used for device to device commands, not broadcast commands.
- If the transmitter does not receive an acknowledge, it will increment the repeat count (up to 3) and resend the message up to 5 times.
In summary, while Insteon does provide error checking, multiple repeaters, and acknowledge/retry logic, it's still single thread. If I place a noise source between the transmitter and receiver I can break it.
Zwave and Zigbee attempt to get around this with RF and multiple repeaters but they are far more expensive and have some of their own problems (I'm really not qualified here). Personally, I don't like the idea of 900Mhz all over my house (Yeah, I'm an oldtimer - don't own a cell).
As a result of the above there are many things that I would never trust to a HA system -
- Security - Hardwired
- HVAC - Hardwire, dedicated controller
- Appliances - Hardwired (Appliance module is a misnomer, these should be called on/off relays switches. A flourescent lamp - fine, my freezer - not on your life).
Sorry for the negativity. Like you, I'm an Engineer - I have to tear things apart to find their good points.
On the lighter side -
It is definately possible to "clean" and "couple" your powerlines to allow X10 systems to be reliable. Unfortunately, this tends to be a maintenance item. We typically keep adding devices to our homes and breaking our X10 systems.
Going for an "inexpesive" solution, there are a number of X10-2way units that can be interrogated for their status. Using ActiveHomePro and the CM15a (the link you provided) you can use a macro to poll these devices and re-issue commands if they don't respond. Keep in mind, you're using the same powerline that didn't transmit the command the first time. It's entirely possible that you won't get a response to your status query.
Insteon units are all X10-2way compatible. They can provide a nice bridge while you're getting your feet wet. I've used my Insteon units for 2 years with the CM15a/ActiveHomePro package while I was waiting for a "stand alone" Insteon controller. Do NOT purchase the PLC version of the Insteon controller that you referenced previously. Smartlabs was never able to get the promised "macro download" functioning and they have abandoned future development. On the other hand, I'd say the ISY-26 would be overkill (way to much investment before you have a good idea on how you want to proceed).
For your pump application, Steven_R's suggestion of the X10 outlet was a good one. These is an Insteon version of this available as well (or will be available on 12/17). For a controller, I'd recommend either the mini timer (if you want to get your toe wet) or the AHP/CM15a/Smart Macros package (can usually be purchased for $49 on sale). The CM15a/Smartmacro package would allow you to interrogate the status of the Insteon Outlet (I believe - don't have one yet).
Boiler
-
Ok I think I am starting to get an understanding here. But the more I read the more questions that keep coming up. So here are some more questions for you all.
I am thinking of buying this (http://www.x10.com/activehomepro/supersystem-customerchoice.html) package deal. I am thinking that this could be a great starting place to get my feet wet. I can customize the package to get the things I would like to have. Maybe I am thinking about this all wrong, but it seems like the best place to start "tinkering"
A question regarding this package. Would the SuperSocket - Wall Receptacle Module (SR227) be usable for outdoors applications, providing that an outdoor outlet box was used? I was thinking that this could be the perfect outlet for my pool pump.
Through all my reading, been reading "X10 Issues? Please read this first! (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=7951.0)", there are numerous articles in there that talk about building a robust system from the start. Such as getting a passive coupler, such as PZZ01, and getting that installed. Also adding filters to all TV's, Computers, and Audio Equipment, such as AF100. Also getting a Signal Strength Meter, such as ESM1. How important would all this be if you are just starting out and want to do some playing before getting real serious with all this.
If all this is required just to get started this goes a bit beyond what I was looking at just to get started, cost wise that is. From what I can tell it would cost me $396.50 plus tax and shipping. That is a bit more than I wanted to spend just starting out.- ESM1 - 86.00 @ Smarthome
- AF100 Filter for 5 tv's and 2 computers - $16.50 each or $115.50 total @homeautomationnet.com
- PZZ01 Power Line Coupler - $45.00 @homeautomationnet.com
- X10 System - $150 @X10.com
I guess what I am asking, is a filter required for every TV and computer in the house even if there is not going to be a X-10 module in that outlet or circuit? I understand that all the power lines, in essence, are all the same point, so I assume I could have some really bad noise issues. The power line coupler/filter just makes sense. So point in letting outside sources effect your HA system. Plus if you have the controller on one phase and want to control something on a different phase you have to have this.
I am currently working on mapping out all the breakers in my house and going to get this into an AutoCAD drawing for future reference. As of right now, none of my breakers are labeled short of the Range, Dryer, Furnace, and AC unit. So mapping the breakers was going to be done anyways.
Am I thinking of all this correctly? Am I really out in left field on this? Do I really need all the stuff I listed just to start out?
Thanks,
Dire
EDIT: A couple more questions. What kind of modules would you recommend for use in a ceiling fan/light combo? I have a lot of ceiling fans in the house and would like to possibly get these into the automation thing as well. But what module would be used to control the lights and the fan speed separately? Right now I have two different switches for the Fan/light. One is a slider switch for dimming the lights and the other is a5 position switch to control the speed of the fan. Is this even possible with the modules that are on the market today? The other question is where do you all order/get your HA stuff from? It seems like this stuff is spread all over the place. Is there one good site that you can order a majority of the items from for one stop shopping?
-
I guess what I am asking, is a filter required for every TV and computer in the house even if there is not going to be a X-10 module in that outlet or circuit? I understand that all the power lines, in essence, are all the same point, so I assume I could have some really bad noise issues. The power line coupler/filter just makes sense. So point in letting outside sources effect your HA system. Plus if you have the controller on one phase and want to control something on a different phase you have to have this.
I am currently working on mapping out all the breakers in my house and going to get this into an AutoCAD drawing for future reference. As of right now, none of my breakers are labeled short of the Range, Dryer, Furnace, and AC unit. So mapping the breakers was going to be done anyways.
Dire,
I can't answer your question specifically. The answer depends on the type of devices connected and where they are connected.
TV's and A/V units are typically signal absorbers. Computer power supplies can be either Absorbers or noise generators (my home built units are absorbers, my wife's laptop is a generator). The placement of these devices on your powerline can have a huge effect on your X10 performance.
Your wiring has a characteristic impedance per foot. Cable distance between a given noise source/absorber (on a given branch circuit) works in your favor as long as your X10 device is closer to your load panel. If a noise source/absorber is placed between your X10 device and the load panel, the impedance of your wiring works against you.
Mapping your circuits is an excellent start. You should also map which branches your TV's, PC's, etc, are on. If you can stay away from these branches, you may be able to do without filters.
For the rest of your questions:
- Do you need the ESM1 - many people do without them. If you encounter a problem, you can get a "qualitative" measure of your system by simple inspection and unplugging "suspects" from your circuit branches. If unplugging your TV solves a communication problem you need a filter on that device. The ESM1 simply puts a number on noise and X10 signal level (are things "good" or "barely acceptable")
- I've never used a SR227 "outside". I have used them in a unheated garage. Not sure if temperature could be a problem (hopefully another forum member with 1st hand experience can answer this). You will need a GFI breaker either in line (another recep) or at your breaker box.
- The PZZ01 is a combination passive coupler and "whole house blocking filter". The filter installs over the neutral connection coming from your meter (an electrician normally installs these). If you were looking for a simple passive coupler, the XPCP is probably what you wanted.
- Your $$ for the X10 components looks a bit high. Give us an idea of what you're contemplating (cameras?).
- Your fan/light combo is controllable with a dimmer (lamp) and relay switch (fan - single speed). If you want a variable speed fan control things get tougher (a lot). There are a number of different styles of fan motors out there and they require different speed controls. You may need to contact the manufacturer on this one.
In don't think you're in left field, just being cautious. Home automation is a rather personal thing - it's your home afterall.
Boiler
-
Direwolf:
For the ceiling fan, I was recommended an XPDI3 by the X10 sales staff. It's a dimmer switch
that will take an inductive load. The dimming function will allow for varying the fan speeds as well
as giving it on/off control. I have ordered mine just haven't gotten around to installing them yet. If
you simply need on/off then you can use the WS13A. Also, keep in mind, that when ordering from
X10, they often have promos on the switches that aren't necessarily on their website. So, for example,
with the XPDI3 they have a buy 2, get one free. When ordering, ask the sales associate what their
combo deals are, and then choose the one that best suits your needs.
HTH
PS: The XPDI3 needs a neutral wire (white) in the switch box. I'm assuming that you already have
that as you mentioned your fans were already on switches.
-
...I've never used a SR227 "outside". I have used them in a unheated garage. Not sure if temperature could be a problem (hopefully another forum member with 1st hand experience can answer this). You will need a GFI breaker either in line (another recep) or at your breaker box....
I use one outdoors but I only use it heavily on Halloween (http://graphics.x10.com/images21/01.3.gif) and lightly during the Christmas season. Add to that I live in GA and we don't see extreme cold that often.
Don't forget the GFI breaker for safety and building codes.
-
Direwolf:
For the ceiling fan, I was recommended an XPDI3 by the X10 sales staff. It's a dimmer switch
that will take an inductive load. The dimming function will allow for varying the fan speeds as well
as giving it on/off control.
HTH
PS: The XPDI3 needs a neutral wire (white) in the switch box. I'm assuming that you already have
that as you mentioned your fans were already on switches.
FYI The XPDI3 can may fan hum at lower speeds. Not too objectionable for most rooms, but was too loud for our bedroom.
-
For the ceiling fan, I was recommended an XPDI3 by the X10 sales staff. It's a dimmer switch
that will take an inductive load. The dimming function will allow for varying the fan speeds as well
as giving it on/off control.
Teerex,
As Dave_W indicated, depending on the type of motor used in your fan, it may hum with a dimming style controller. You may be able to "minimize" the hum by selecting different speeds at the fan (pull chain). Rather than trying to explain the "why" here, I'll defer to the X10 sage - "Uncle Phil"
Uncle Phil Link: Controlling Motors and Transformers (http://www.act-solutions.com/PCC/kingery02.htm)
Unfortunately if your fan does hum with the XPDI3, you don't have many options. Lightolier does have a CCWHIP controller that is advertised as being a "No Hum" unit. I am not sure how they accomplish this, but the controller price may exceed that of your fan.
Has anyone tried adding a filter to the output of a dimmer to "smooth" the signal and reduce fan hum?
Boiler
-
Teerex,
As Dave_W indicated, depending on the type of motor used in your fan, it may hum with a dimming style controller. You may be able to "minimize" the hum by selecting different speeds at the fan (pull chain). Rather than trying to explain the "why" here, I'll defer to the X10 sage - "Uncle Phil"
Uncle Phil Link: Controlling Motors and Transformers (http://www.act-solutions.com/PCC/kingery02.htm)
Unfortunately if your fan does hum with the XPDI3, you don't have many options. Lightolier does have a CCWHIP controller that is advertised as being a "No Hum" unit. I am not sure how they accomplish this, but the controller price may exceed that of your fan.
Has anyone tried adding a filter to the output of a dimmer to "smooth" the signal and reduce fan hum?
Boiler
Thanks, Dave W, for the heads up, and Boiler, for the link and additional info. After installing the switch,
if I have the humming issue, I'll probably replace the XPDI with a WS13 (or get earplugs for me and the
wife :P I'm not too concerned about having speed control as we typically use it at the same speed setting.
Currently, my fan remote switch comprises shouting out to one of my kids to come in and turn the fan off/on.
After all, that's why people have kids, isn't it ;)
-
...Currently, my fan remote switch comprises shouting out to one of my kids to come in and turn the fan off/on.
After all, that's why people have kids, isn't it ;)
That works up until they become teenagers. Then they begin to grow up and realize they're being used and it's not as much fun without some motivation. Now ask them to get the ice cream and it's a difference story. ;)