X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Topic started by: Don N on November 27, 2007, 05:56:52 PM
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I have AHP with all the trimmings (iWatch, Smart Macros and MyHouse Online). I have three Lamp Modules connected to a circuit that has five outlets on the second floor. Two outlets for this same circuit are on the first floor. A Motion Sensor activates a Macro that turns the lamps on. Another Macro turns the lamps off. The Lamp Modules work fine, as do the Macros, on the first floor. But none of the five outlets work with the Lamp Module on the second floor. I've disconnected everything on this circuit.
The real bad news is, all five outlets on the second floor worked fine for the past year and until last week. Nothing new has been added to any other circuit. Could there be, all of a sudden, a signal strength problem on the upstairs outlets? Lamps plugged into the outlets work fine. Could "noise" just affect some outlets and not other outlets that are on the same circuit?
I've rebuilt the Macros several times to eliminate a corrupted file. I've put delays into the Macro. I've set all the Lamp Modules to the same House Code and Unit Number. And I've set all the Lamp Modules to different House Codes and Unit Numbers. I've "reset" the CM15A. The Activity Monitor shows all Lamp Modules are turned on and off when the Macros are activated.
I'm at wits end. I've run out of ideas to try. All my other cameras, switches, Macros, sensors, timers etc. work fine. Other suggestions I might try?
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The real bad news is, all five outlets on the second floor worked fine for the past year and until last week. Nothing new has been added to any other circuit. Could there be, all of a sudden, a signal strength problem on the upstairs outlets? Lamps plugged into the outlets work fine. Could "noise" just affect some outlets and not other outlets that are on the same circuit?
Yes, this does sound like a signal level or noise problem. If you have access to a X10 signal level meter, it would be interesting to find out what levels are seen on those outlets. While you may think nothing new has been added, something as simple as a new cellphone charger can wipe out an entire circuit. If signal levels were marginal before, it wouldn't take much to cause a problem.
Jeff
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Jeff, thanks for your thoughts. The circuit is isolated with no other electrical devices on any of the outlets. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a X10 Signal Level meter. I'm not an expert on this ... why would some of the outlets have different signal levels? With no devices on any of the outlets, wouldn't the signal strength be the same for all outlets? Or why would they all of a sudden change after a year of working flawlessly.
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Even with no loads on the outlets. There is some signal degradation from the wiring itself.
Any new device even if not in the circuit in question could make a difference.
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Don N. Here's what I did to get use of a meter vary helpful free as a loaner; minus postage.
http://automatedoutlet.com/catalog/Elk-ESM1-test-Elk-Signal--Noise-test-meter-FREE-test-p-463.html
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Jeff, thanks for your thoughts. The circuit is isolated with no other electrical devices on any of the outlets. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a X10 Signal Level meter. I'm not an expert on this ... why would some of the outlets have different signal levels? With no devices on any of the outlets, wouldn't the signal strength be the same for all outlets? Or why would they all of a sudden change after a year of working flawlessly.
House wiring is designed to distribute 60Hz power, not 120KHz low-frequency RF. The distributed inductance and capacitance in the wiring causes a steady decrease in signal levels as they propagate away from the distribution panel. Measurements here show a drop of roughly 1 percent PER FOOT of wire length. Since your problem is with your upper level, there may be a significant wire run involved. Signal levels may be marginal without any loads.
Many people report a sudden problem after a system has been working fine for years. It is almost always traced to something that was changed in the electrical environment. Often is it something simple that is easily overlooked, like a new cellphone charger.
Jeff
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Thanks *Cor* for the information. JeffVolp thanks for the tutorial. I guess I will try an even cheaper route first. If I trip all breakers except the circuit in question, that would eliminate the affect of any new electrical devices would have on the circuit. Unplug all devices from the circuit execpt the modules being tested. If there is still a problem after this test ... what would be the solution to fix that circuit?
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It sounds like you have a pretty large X10 system. Since you have successfully used X10 for awhile, you probably already have a phase coupler installed. If it is just a capacitor, you may want to try one of the tuned-circuit passive couplers for a lower impedance. Also, move your transmitter as close to the distribution panel as possible to reduce the loss in that run. The last step would be to install some type of signal booster.
Jeff
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I've rebuilt the Macros several times to eliminate a corrupted file. I've put delays into the Macro. I've set all the Lamp Modules to the same House Code and Unit Number. And I've set all the Lamp Modules to different House Codes and Unit Numbers. I've "reset" the CM15A. The Activity Monitor shows all Lamp Modules are turned on and off when the Macros are activated.
Is it only your macros that aren't working? Have you tried turning the modules on directly through AHP, or using a Palmpad or other RF device?
If it is only macros and timers that are not functioning, you may be the (un)-lucky owner of some of the "new LM465" modules. These modules will not activate in response to a bright command.
Check the setting in AHP under Tools\preference\macro options. Make sure the box "issue on in place of bright 100%" is checked.
Also check the Date Code (round sticker on the back) and get back with us. If you do in fact have the "newer units" there are other Idiosyncrasies. There are a number of guides on the forum dealing with how to interface these units to AHP. Search for "new lm465" or "lm465 and softstart".
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Ahhh, my X10-World is now back in sync. Good thoughts from both Boiler and JeffVolp. Thanks also to Brian H and *Car*. I gave everyone big helpful.
Anyway, here's what I learned in my testing. It came down to an extension to a circuit I installed a couple of weeks ago in the garage. I added a couple of PSC01 Poweflash units to turn on a warning light inside the house to indicate the garage doors were open after dark. Which, by the way, works very well. But apparently causes noise in the troublesome circuit. By putting an XPPF noise filter on each of the PSC01s ... the problem goes away.
So the reason the downstairs outlets worked and the upstairs outlets didn't work is, as JeffVolp said, probably because of the wiring distance. Thus the noise had more affect on the upstairs outlets. Interesting too, is the breaker for the garage circuit is at the top of the electrical panel. And the other circuit was at the bottom of the electrical panel. Oh well, I'm still learning. And yes, JeffVolp, my X10 is getting pretty large. But it's always been pretty stable, because I've incorporated a lot of stuff that I've learned right here on the Forum.
Thanks everyone for your help.
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This sounds like a signal level problem, not a noise problem. Most X10 transmitters are in effect also "signal suckers". The transmitter stage is not decoupled from the powerline when inactive, and that loads down any X10 signals on that circuit. Here there was one central circuit that read only .1V before adding the XTB. That circuit feeds nine X10 devices, including several transmitters. There were no loads other than incandescent fixtures fed through Leviton X10 dimmers. So, the low signal levels were caused exclusively by loading from the X10 devices themselves.
You may have had marginal signal levels all along, and adding those two additional transmitters was just enough to cause a problem on that upstairs circuit. I'm glad it was easy to resolve. Since you have an extensive system, you might consider increasing your signal levels to give you more margin to prevent surprises like this in the future.
Jeff
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Jeff, Is this what you are suggesting? Sounds like this would help eliminate future marginal signal level problems as I add more X-10 stuff.
http://www.smarthome.com/4827.html
This is kind of a late update (August 2008), but I did recently purchase Jeff's XTB. And it did solve the problem. I plugged my CM15A into the XTB and now these circuits are working fine. Sorry I don't have a meter to measure the improvements ... but I do have results.
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Sorry for cutting in. You need to check out Jeff's website.
http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm
He does have a nice one and that will be the one I get as soon as my system gets bigger.
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I sure don't mean to butt in - I'm a noobe myself - only spent $500 so far ;D
I'll be having my own questions, like monitor, flags, how do you read the Activity monitor, 1-way, 2-way, etc. Sometimes the folks who've been X10ing it for a while don't remember what it's like to know nothing.
So I post this: I had my USB (CM15A) plugged into a wall outlet. No matter what I did, it would NOT turn a particular lamp module on. The security remote turned it on& off every time. Next day, I was fiddlin with editing the module in AHP and the light worked. Next day nope!
I also had some troubles getting the Mini-Timer to control all of the outlets and was about to order the Phase Coupler, but I figured it out. Some of my wall outlets and some of my extension cords have what I can only call "poor" connections - either the female sockets, or the male plugs. For the CM15A, I plugged a Belkin 3-prong power strip into the wall and the CM15A into the Belkin strip. Bingo! EVERYTHING works. I moved the Mini-Timer from another power strip to a tight wall socket and EVERYTHING works!
Looks like a great forum here! Glad to be aboard! :D
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Sometimes the folks who've been X10ing it for a while don't remember what it's like to know nothing.
Welcome to the forums PajamGuy!
Don't kid yourself... sometimes some of us can get a little tired typing out the same answer to the same questions/problem. Speaking for myself.... maybe I type less words than I should sometimes. I certainly hope my shortness of words doesn't make me sound short of temperament.
I have read a couple posts of X10 users that "grew-up with X10" and learned about it from they're fathers. But mostly.. we have all had our share of frustrations... and now hope to share what we have learned.
Thank-you for sharing too!
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Hey Don,
Here's what I did recently to fix my X10 problems.
Some of them were exactly as you have described.
Hope this helps.
http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14221.0
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EL34 -- Thanks. I read, with interest, your post several days ago. Very informative. My environment still works pretty good with the exception of this sporadic circuit that I discussed above. I believe that both * Cor * and JeffVolp's suggestions that it's a signal level problem, is right on. I've just been too busy the past month to fix the problem. Soon as the holiday's are over, I will refocus on this and get it fixed.
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Yes, signal levels and signal suckers are exactly what I wrote about.
X10 problems always boil down to that.
Well 90+% of the time anyway.
I suppose once in a great while you can have a faulty X10 device, but that's more rare.
If you do not have filters, crossovers and maybe a signal booster, you may want to read my web page with some updated info on fixing your X10 situation.
I added some more info to my X10 page here.
http://www.el34world.com/Misc/home/X10_0.htm
good luck
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EL34; You information on your site looks nice. I plan to read it further.
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Thanks Brian. :)