X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 12:12:09 PM

Title: MS16A troubles
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 12:12:09 PM
Today I received my long-awaited X10 gear, including a handful of outdoor "ActiveEye" motion sensors, AHP USB interface, some appliance & lamp modules, and a few remotes.  I was immediately able to hook up the coffee pot on A1, no problem.  I then started experimenting with my motion sensors.  I tested one using the default code to flip my coffee pot on & off, & it seemed to be working well.  I then changed the unit code to A4 & tested it--AHP showing the signal in "Activity."  So I mounted it on an exterior concrete wall above the garage door.

From the location mounted on the wall, I can NOT receive the signal.  I've tried the following:
-changing batteries
-changing to a different sensor
-trying a different unit code
-unplugging my PC from the CM15A
-moving the CM15A upstairs
-moving the CM15A into the garage (around 20' from the motion sensor)

None of these allows my CM15A to receive the signal from the motion sensor.  I'm lead to believe it's interference, I guess, because the sensors work just fine inside the house.  Because I tried the CM15A so CLOSE to the sensor, I'm also starting to believe that no number of additional RF transceivers is going to help this problem.  I'm in an area with lots of other houses nearby, so I suppose if it's interference it could be coming from anywhere.

I'd rather not just box it up & send it back--any ideas?

Thanks & regards,
-Josh
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 12:22:54 PM
I should also note that I regularly use a remote/HomeLink from the car to open the garage door, & don't experience any problems with that.
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: Tuicemen on October 09, 2006, 12:35:45 PM
Rf transmitions can be blocked or interfered with by a lot of things!
Do an Advaced Search  for "RF reception".
You'll find lots of things that may help.
The main one that may be the cause is a large metal object between the sensor and the CM15A. Aluminum siding , building wrap or garrage door may be the problem.
If you can mount a tranciever out side(protected from the elements) this may solve the problem!
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: Puck on October 09, 2006, 12:40:08 PM
DeltaNu1142,

Since you stated that it worked inside and now it doesn't when mounted outside, I would first suspect the concrete wall is part of the problem. The transmitters in the motion detectors are not very strong (from my experience anyways), and travelling through concrete will definitely weaken it's range. Down to 20'? I guess that would depend on all obstacles the signal has to pass through in a straight line from the sensor to the receiver. (E.G. if the signal has to travel diagonally through the concrete to reach the receiver, the weaker it will become.)

Another possibility is you have the detector set to only sense motion at night. I suggest opening the battery cover and just pressing the on & off buttons to see it the signal is being received.
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: JimC on October 09, 2006, 12:43:23 PM
In addition to the things Tuicemen suggested you also may have problems with line noise and/or phase coupling problems. In your post you state that you moved your Cm15A to several locations and were still not able to receive the signal from the motion sensor. At some of these locations you may have been receiving the signal but it simply may not have been getting from the CM15A to the device you were trying to controll. You may want to search these forums for phase coupling and electrical interference.

You stated that you put your coffee pot on A1.  May I suggest that you change this. A1 is used by most X10 RF devicesas the default code. Unless you want the coffee pot turning on and off each time you take a new motion sensor out of the box avoid A1.
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 09, 2006, 02:16:12 PM
Quote from: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 12:12:09 PM
Today I received my long-awaited X10 gear, including a handful of outdoor "ActiveEye" motion sensors, AHP USB interface, some appliance & lamp modules, and a few remotes.  I was immediately able to hook up the coffee pot on A1...

Welcome to the Club! :)

Quote from: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 12:12:09 PM
From the location mounted on the wall, I can NOT receive the signal.  I've tried the following:
-changing batteries
-changing to a different sensor
-trying a different unit code
-unplugging my PC from the CM15A
-moving the CM15A upstairs
-moving the CM15A into the garage (around 20' from the motion sensor)

None of these allows my CM15A to receive the signal from the motion sensor.  I'm lead to believe it's interference...

...I'd rather not just box it up & send it back--any ideas?

Although all of the previous suggestions of help are valid, I'm of a "different religion " when it comes to X10 NEWBIEs [evident by my  :( ever-increasing :'( "Unhelpful" count (How can one person, here only since June 2006, have *BOTH* the most "Helpfuls" *AND* the most "UnHelpfuls"?  ??? :o ::)  I blame politics! ;) ) - well, as long as the folks that benefit from my advice keep my "Helpful" count higher...  :-\ ] - more along the lines of:


Thus, my first suggestion: LEAVE EVERYTHING IN THE BOX AND START READING  :o

Yeah, I know it's hard, but X10 isn't (and never will be) "Plug-N-Go".  :(


You won't enjoy X10 until you understand it. And you won't understand it until you either waste hour after hour going through what we "Oldtimers " went through *OR* reading our NOTEs.  ;)

On top of that, unless you personally can *SEE* electrons moving, you need the "Troubleshooting Tools ".

So, order the extra "stuff" and while you're waiting for it to arrive, READ, READ, READ.  After a few days, PRESTO!!! ;D
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 02:48:15 PM
Ha ha ha ha...  all valid points, some, ahem, more colorful than others.  I'm doing my very best not to charge ahead; I think I performed the requisite amount of troubleshooting before dashing off to the forum for help.  The best suggestion I heard was to mount the transceiver outside (Tuicemen).  Answers to your queries...

1) no problem with phase coupling, as I'm going direct from my motion sensor to the CM15A & reading signals on the activity monitor
2) sensor set to detect motion only at night--no, that'll be my setting after I get it working, but at the moment it's default (both night & day detection)

I did a bit of forum reading before posting, and did see a bit about RF interference--I guess I just expected more performance out of this sensor!!  Since posting, I've installed 3 dimmer switches & they're running flawlessly, so I suppose that electrical engineering degree didn't go completely to waste...

I'll tell you what--I'll put the CM15A in a location outside where I'd be able to mount another transceiver, & give it another try.  Results will be posted in 10 minutes.

Thanks all,
-Josh
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 03:19:35 PM
Quote from: Tuicemen on October 09, 2006, 12:35:45 PM
If you can mount a tranciever out side(protected from the elements) this may solve the problem!

WELL...  you're half right!  I tried outside, near my front door, which isn't more than 25' away from the sensor, and NIENTE.  So, I then pulled the CM15A RIGHT under the sensor, and to the left, inside the garage door--literally 8' from the sensor--and it works, with garage door closed or open.  So I'll need to add a TM751 to the list of things to buy.  I can tell this isn't going to be an inexpensive hobby!  ;D
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: Tuicemen on October 09, 2006, 03:31:13 PM
You should be getting more than 25 ' line of sight distance with your CM15A! Many have experianced short distance reception which turned out to be defective CM15As!
others have simply done mods posted on here as well as other forums explaining how.
If you decide to go with another tranciever there are better ones other than the tm751! ;)
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 05:25:57 PM
Quote from: Tuicemen on October 09, 2006, 03:31:13 PM
You should be getting more than 25 ' line of sight distance with your CM15A! Many have experianced short distance reception which turned out to be defective CM15As!
others have simply done mods posted on here as well as other forums explaining how.
If you decide to go with another tranciever there are better ones other than the tm751! ;)

I got the same distance out of 2 different sensors.  I'll try some other modules INSIDE the house to see if I have the same troubles.

As far as other transcievers--I'm LISTENING!!!

 :P
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 09, 2006, 05:40:22 PM
Quote from: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 05:25:57 PM
As far as other transcievers--I'm LISTENING!!!

 :P

Not that well it seems...  :o

 :D

[Anybody got any fish?  ;D ]
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 05:47:05 PM
Quote from: Tuicemen on October 09, 2006, 03:31:13 PM
If you decide to go with another tranciever there are better ones other than the tm751! ;)

RR501?  SR731?
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: Tuicemen on October 09, 2006, 05:52:25 PM
 DeltaNu1142 : RR501 ;)
TakeTheActive:  some people just don't like fishin! ;) :D
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 09, 2006, 05:54:12 PM
Cut a length of coat hanger wire about 18 inches long and tape it to the wall horizontally about 1 inch above the motion sensor.  See if that improves your range.  (If this sounds bizarre, think "Yagi").
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 09, 2006, 06:00:41 PM
Quote from: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 02:48:15 PM
Ha ha ha ha...  all valid points, some, ahem, more colorful than others.

Therapy.   ;D

Quote from: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 02:48:15 PM
...I'm doing my very best not to charge ahead; I think I performed the requisite amount of troubleshooting before dashing off to the forum for help...

1) no problem with phase coupling, as I'm going direct from my motion sensor to the CM15A & reading signals on the activity monitor

Quote from: TakeTheActive Boilerplate Response
MAP / MEASURE / CORRECT
ACT X-10 Troubleshooting Flowchart (courtesy of 'Uncle' Phil Kingery) - (Read 956 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg57828#msg57828)

I understand that most users don't want to hear this but [/size]to have a reliable X10 System requires a substantial upfront investment in time and effort.

Follow the recommendations in my FAQs / Sig Link and you should be able to reach a solution...[/size]

;)
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 09, 2006, 06:14:52 PM
Quote from: Charles Sullivan on October 09, 2006, 05:54:12 PM
Cut a length of coat hanger wire about 18 inches long and tape it to the wall horizontally about 1 inch above the motion sensor.  See if that improves your range.  (If this sounds bizarre, think "Yagi").

Antenna Passive Repeater to Boost Signal Strength (http://jvde.us/x10/passive.pdf)

8)
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 09, 2006, 06:19:15 PM
Quote from: DeltaNu1142 on October 09, 2006, 03:19:35 PM
WELL...  you're half right!  I tried outside, near my front door, which isn't more than 25' away from the sensor, and NIENTE...

Eggbeater Antenna (http://jvde.us/x10/eggbeater.pdf)

 8)
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 09, 2006, 06:29:13 PM
Quote from: Tuicemen on October 09, 2006, 05:52:25 PM
DeltaNu1142 : RR501 ;)

Quote from: TakeTheActive on October 09, 2006, 02:16:12 PM
  • BUY some "[/size]Troubleshooting Tools [/b]": Besides the ELK Signal Strength Meter, get a wired controller, a [/size]RR501, a PalmPad, a Universal Module (or Chime, but the UM has more functionality).

You won't enjoy X10 until you understand it. And you won't understand it until you either waste hour after hour going through what we "[/size]Oldtimers[/b] " went through *OR* reading our NOTEs.  ;)

On top of that, unless you personally can *SEE* electrons moving, you need the "[/size]Troubleshooting Tools [/b]".[/size]

Quote from: Tuicemen on October 09, 2006, 05:52:25 PM
TakeTheActive:  some people just don't like fishin! ;) :D

Should we switch to canned goods then?  ???   :D
Title: Re: MS16A troubles
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 10, 2006, 11:15:44 PM
Many CM15A's seem to have poor RF reception range.  Mine only worked from a handfull of feet away until my wife bumped it with something and broke the plastic antenna loose.  Now there is about one inch of wire hanging out of the case with the antenna dangling down from it.  The range has never been better!   :D

Unless you plan to return the unit, I'd definitely recommend some of the antenna mods referenced above as they are much cheaper than buying another device to repeat the RF signal.

Besides, as an electrical engineer, saving a buck by making a mod is more fun IMHO.   :D
Title: Holy crap
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on October 11, 2006, 03:39:49 PM
Quote from: -Bill- (of BXVC) on October 10, 2006, 11:15:44 PM
Many CM15A's seem to have poor RF reception range.  Mine only worked from a handfull of feet away until my wife bumped it with something and broke the plastic antenna loose.  Now there is about one inch of wire hanging out of the case with the antenna dangling down from it.  The range has never been better!   :D

Unless you plan to return the unit, I'd definitely recommend some of the antenna mods referenced above as they are much cheaper than buying another device to repeat the RF signal.

I just removed the plastic tube covering the antenna wire, soldered an extra 9.5" of wire on the end of the existing wire, and heat-shrunk (sp?) the thing.  DOUBLED my range.  Fantastic!

I'm still looking for something better than the flimsy shrink-wrap though.  I've got two layers on & I'm thinking about just using straws...  any ideas?

Thanks for all your suggestions!
Title: Re: Holy crap
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 11, 2006, 09:31:23 PM
Quote from: DeltaNu1142 on October 11, 2006, 03:39:49 PM
Quote from: -Bill- (of BXVC) on October 10, 2006, 11:15:44 PM
Many CM15A's seem to have poor RF reception range.  Mine only worked from a handfull of feet away until my wife bumped it with something and broke the plastic antenna loose.  Now there is about one inch of wire hanging out of the case with the antenna dangling down from it.  The range has never been better!   :D

Unless you plan to return the unit, I'd definitely recommend some of the antenna mods referenced above as they are much cheaper than buying another device to repeat the RF signal.

I just removed the plastic tube covering the antenna wire, soldered an extra 9.5" of wire on the end of the existing wire, and heat-shrunk (sp?) the thing.  DOUBLED my range.  Fantastic!

I'm still looking for something better than the flimsy shrink-wrap though.  I've got two layers on & I'm thinking about just using straws...  any ideas?

Thanks for all your suggestions!

Glad to help!   :)  DOUBLED huh!   :o  Now I'm going to have to try that!  What guage of wire did you use?

To stiffen it up, how about the long spray tube from a can of WD-40?   :-\
Title: Re: Holy crap
Post by: DeltaNu1142 on October 13, 2006, 05:59:23 AM
Quote from: -Bill- (of BXVC) on October 11, 2006, 09:31:23 PM
Glad to help!   :)  DOUBLED huh!   :o  Now I'm going to have to try that!  What guage of wire did you use?
To stiffen it up, how about the long spray tube from a can of WD-40?   :-\

I used about the same gauge as the antenna wire, quite small--22?  The WD-40 spray tube is a good idea, it would probably fit just fine, except over my shoddy solder job.  :-[  And it would have to be around 15" long (but who couldn't use 2 extra bottles of WD hanging around the house?)

I still need an RR501 (now that I now what that module is, I'll call it by its model number TakeTheActive!) for my garage sensor, but now my CM15A is picking up my front door sensor no problem.

I'm sure the other methods will work better--I did the quick & dirty because I didn't have to mess with the internals (yet).