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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: mackie1604 on October 10, 2006, 01:31:35 AM

Title: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: mackie1604 on October 10, 2006, 01:31:35 AM
Just picked up my X10 equipment.....

Some outlets aren't working, very typical phase issues it seems like.

Rather than doing the Dryer thing and/or the phase coupler stuff......can I just add a couple TM751's?  If not, what about the RR501's?

I would think just adding a couple of these around the house would fix my phase issues..but maybe having multiple will send the signals twice...(I thought adding the RR501's to the TM751 would fix this)

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 10, 2006, 02:18:15 AM
Quote from: mackie1604 on October 10, 2006, 01:31:35 AM
Just picked up my X10 equipment.....

Some outlets aren't working, very typical phase issues it seems like.

Rather than doing the Dryer thing and/or the phase coupler stuff......can I just add a couple TM751's?  If not, what about the RR501's?

I would think just adding a couple of these around the house would fix my phase issues..but maybe having multiple will send the signals twice...(I thought adding the RR501's to the TM751 would fix this)

Thoughts?

Quote from: TakeTheActive Boilerplate Response
MAP / MEASURE / CORRECT
ACT X-10 Troubleshooting Flowchart (courtesy of 'Uncle' Phil Kingery) - (Read 956 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg57828#msg57828)

I understand that most users don't want to hear this but [/size]to have a reliable X10 System requires a substantial upfront investment in time and effort.

Follow the recommendations in my FAQs / Sig Link and you should be able to reach a solution...[/size]
:-[

;)
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: Brian H on October 10, 2006, 06:54:26 AM
No on both the TM751 or the RR501 unless the problem was RF remote range. Both do not resend X10 Powerline data back on the phase they are connected to and do not send data by RF to other ones..
As mentioned. You may need filters or a coupler or repeater/coupler.
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 10, 2006, 07:08:17 AM
Quote from: Brian H on October 10, 2006, 06:54:26 AM
...Both do not resend X10 Powerline data back on the phase they are connected to...

Well, IMO, the OPs question and your reply are *BOTH* sort of "ambiguous " / gray area.

A RR501 / TM751 *WILL* receive the RF and relay / generate the PLC for RF transmitters that the CM15A doesn't "hear ", so they "may " help the OP out. [The V572A might help the OP out even more, but you're more familiar with that product line than I am.]
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: Duck69 on October 10, 2006, 10:14:44 AM
mackie1604,

Adding TM751’s or RR501’s WILL NOT solve phase problems !

Note: If you should ever need one of these transceivers, avoid the TM751 it could cause you problems; For instance if it and and another is on the same house code and receive the same signal they will both send the signal at the same time. Whereas the RR501 is polite and one should wait for the other to finish sending. Obviously, the RR501 is the better transceiver.

Installing a phase coupler is inexpensive and in my opinion a must.
Some people with very large homes have found a need for a Coupler/Repeater.
In my case, my home is 2000 sq ft, and my garage is 100+ feet away. I just use a coupler and everything works just fine.


One of my favorite places for X10 equipment is AutomatedOutlet found here:
https://www.automatedoutlet.com/home.php

You can get a 4816 SignaLinc Phase Coupler for $19.99
and should you want a RR501, you can also get it here for: $15.99

Also in my opinion: You should have filters on EVERYTHING that may cause power line noise. Things like; Surge suppressors, TVs, UPSs, Computers, Power Adapters, Fluorescent lights, Heater fans, etc., etc,. etc...

Knowing that some of us can’t afford test equipment. AutomatedOutlet provides a FREE meter for testing.
Elk Signal & Noise test meter - FREE test $85.64 Order and pay for it (This is to ensure that you do indeed send it back.). Then when you’re done, return it and you’ll get your money back: Part Number: Elk-ESM1-test

AND ! YES, definately map out your circuits. Breaker boxes are notoriously not labeled or labeled incorrectly. So, get someone to help you and check exactly where each circuit goes.

Correction From dave w:  "Every panel I have ever seen, BOTH phases were present on BOTH sides of the panel.
From top to bottom of the panel, each breaker is on the opposite phase as the one below it."
Thank you dave w.

Hope this helps you.

Otis69
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 10, 2006, 11:21:27 AM
Quote from: mackie1604 on October 10, 2006, 01:31:35 AM
Just picked up my X10 equipment.....

Some outlets aren't working, very typical phase issues it seems like.

Rather than doing the Dryer thing and/or the phase coupler stuff......can I just add a couple TM751's?  If not, what about the RR501's?

I would think just adding a couple of these around the house would fix my phase issues..but maybe having multiple will send the signals twice...(I thought adding the RR501's to the TM751 would fix this)

Thoughts?

If it's a phase issue, you're well advised to cure the problem by adding a phase coupler rather than applying a band-aid, which is guaranteed to give you more problems down the road.

Try this: Get a long extension cord and plug it into one of the problem outlets.  Plug your CM15A into the extension cord.  If the problem outlets now work AND the non-problem outlets DON'T work, then it's likely all you'll need is a phase coupler.

Otherwise you'll probably find that you have one or more noisy or "signal sucker" appliances (possibly TV, VCR, UPS,  PC , or other devices with switching power supplies) which will require filters.




Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: dave w on October 10, 2006, 12:04:43 PM
Quote from: Otis69 on October 10, 2006, 10:14:44 AM
mackie1604,

Most homes have 2-phase 220V power that splits into two separate 110V legs. One side of the panel is on one phase while the other is on the other phase.

Hope this helps you.

Otis69

Don't think so!
Every panel I have ever seen, BOTH phases were present on BOTH sides of the panel.

From top to bottom of the panel, each breaker is on the opposite phase as the one below it. Otherwise a 220V appliance would have wires stretched from one side of the panel to the other, which ain't the case. The breakers for 220V appliances are always adjacent (one above the other, usually with bats bridged togeather).
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: mackie1604 on October 10, 2006, 12:51:33 PM
Ok, so I played around with this last night.

I have the CM15A downstairs on one side of the wall (outlets that couldn't be reached by the TM751) and the TM751 on the other side of the wall.

Now I can access all of the outlets downstairs with Zero problems.

The only issue I have now is I can't hit anything upstairs, and the switches are too far way for my Eagle Eye Sensor to trigger the outside lights.....

Should I still just get the coupler for the dryer?  Should I get rid of the TM751 and just use the CM15A by itself?

Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: Brian H on October 10, 2006, 06:53:54 PM
I stand by my reply. They indicated it was a phase problem and a RR501 or TM751 will not fix it.
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 10, 2006, 08:31:25 PM
Quote from: mackie1604 on October 10, 2006, 12:51:33 PM
Ok, so I played around with this last night.

...Now I can access all of the outlets downstairs with Zero problems.

The only issue I have now is I can't hit anything upstairs,...

Should I still just get the coupler for the dryer?  Should I get rid of the TM751 and just use the CM15A by itself?

IMO, there is no shortcut to achieving X10 reliability. Until you are willing to invest the upfront effort and supply the answers to the questions I asked, everything else you do will be a GUESS.  :(

Throw as much money on the problem as you like  - you might get lucky. ;)
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: mackie1604 on October 10, 2006, 09:18:18 PM
I haven't tried those things yet, no filters either.

I'm going to keep playing with the setup...and I'll go the other routes when I determine if I can't fix the situation.

No reason to spend more money if we dont need to.
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: Tuicemen on October 10, 2006, 11:14:05 PM
If your determind to use the tm751 with the CM15A. Mount the CM15a a high in the house as you can (second floor of a 2 story home) mount yout tm752 to the lowest floor!
But untill you figure which outlets are on which phase, without the phase coupler your going to have problems! ;) :)
Don't get me wrong you can do what your tring if your using limited devices on one phase verses the other!
But you need a map of your circits!
Take TakeTheActives Advice  ;) :) :D Seems like alot of work but it will pay off big time in the long run! ;) :D :)
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on October 10, 2006, 11:15:01 PM
Have an electric stove?  You can use a 0.1 uF 250 VAC Capacitor across the conductors inside the wiring box for the stove. It bridges the phases, but doesn't conduct power.

I had a phase problem, my local X10 dealer sells them, so I got one, installed it and every module in the house has worked perfectly since. Cost of the capacitor is around a dollar, beats anything else availble for cost.
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: vhoang on October 18, 2006, 06:50:42 PM
X10 no-no: putting two TM751 on the same housecode.   More so when they are on the same phase.  Still the messages will cross with enough energy at some locations to be bothersome. 

That being said, you are free to pop in a second TM751 on the other phase using a different house code and let them work away.   

It'll works for you if you don't want to spend extra on phase couplers.   Although you really should cause lots of mysterious failures will magically disappear.   And if you do, save yourself trouble in the future and get the one with an amplifier so you don't have to spend extra on a boosterlinc later.

you can pick em up from:
smarthome.com
sensorsandmore.com
automatedoutlet.com

Stay away from the capactor thingy unless you want to risk voiding you home insurance policy or you know what you are doing.   Whenever you do your own wiring ask yourself first can I do it well enough so an electrical inspector can say it's safe?   Finding a burnt capactor next to a electrical fire is not good.
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: vhoang on October 18, 2006, 07:07:48 PM
Just re-read my post.. my point got lost along the way.  hehe.

Partition your outlets as existing on two logical phases, and reserve a house code (or two) for each phase.   Set out the outlets from one phase to one housecode to be controlled by 1 TM751.   Let the other phase be controlled by a second TM751 on a different housecode.

Thus eliminated the phase problem, without a phase coupler.
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on October 18, 2006, 07:20:00 PM
Only problem is that AHP (or your control program) can't control the other transciever with a phase problem. If your interface is on one phase and the second transciever is on the other phase, you can't control the transciever and timers and macros won't work either.  You need a phase coupler. Check the other responses in the thread for examples and possible costs.
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: vhoang on October 18, 2006, 07:48:14 PM
What are you talking about.   Even a firecracker can control multiple TM751s.  Not to mention the CM15A....  That's their whole advertising:

Yes, it's true. Big things really do come in small packages. bla bla bla... This interface will send and receive ALL 256 house/unit codes
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: vhoang on October 18, 2006, 07:49:32 PM
It's RF straight to the transceiver.  Hence the no phase problem to begin with comment.
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: Duck69 on October 18, 2006, 10:46:08 PM
OK! lets try this.

#1) You need a map of your circits! Take TakeTheActives Advice. Seems like alot of work but it will pay off big time in the long run!

#2) Invest in a phase coupler & some filters

#3) IF you find the need for one of these transceivers. DO NOT use the TM751.INSTEAD USE a RR501. Available @ Automated Outlet for $15.99: https://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php?productid=59&cat=0&page=1

#4) Post again with your progress

#5) Have FUN !
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: vhoang on October 19, 2006, 12:21:16 PM
I have to concur with duck69's 1,2,4 and especially 5.

Know your products and it's strengths and weaknesses.   The TM751 will only give you problems if you go beyond a basic setup.  If it's the only transceiver on your powerline it will do it's job and do it well.   

If you put multiple on the powerline it will still do well, given that you keep them on seperate house codes, the odds of them firing at the exact same moment is still there but manageable.

What about X10 statuses from Modules?   The TM751 will likely collide with those messages,  but if you are getting statuses from modules, you would have upgraded to a computer controlled interface or a device that is transmitting status requests and you'd better do away with the TM751. 

My two cents is in response with mackie1064's original question:

"Rather than doing the Dryer thing and/or the phase coupler stuff......can I just add a couple TM751's?  If not, what about the RR501's?"

Keep the phases seperate logically and let each TM751 manage that phase.

"I would think just adding a couple of these around the house would fix my phase issues..but maybe having multiple will send the signals twice...(I thought adding the RR501's to the TM751 would fix this)"

Adding more TM751s on the same phase will worsen and not help your outlet issue.  Sending the signal twice does not make the signal stronger.   Sending them at the same time actually makes the signal harder to be understood.

My general interpretation of the question is that there's an outlet not getting a signal, if I put a TM751 next to that outlet (ie on the same phase) will it help.

Yes it will help turn that module on.   But if it's on the same HouseCode as the other TM751, it likely fire at the same time and will cause signal collision.   A phase difference does not gaurantee that no signals crossing from one phase to another.

If that's what you want to do, that's the weaknesses you will need to deal with, but you can deal with them.   A good X10 setup does not requre multiple TM751.    Boosterlinc / SignalLinc are design to help carry that signal throughout the rest of your large multi phased house.

In general advice #3 will save you from a lot of headache in the future if you want a good X10 system.   But I would not go as far as "do not use" them, but understand their limitations.
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 19, 2006, 12:44:37 PM
mackie1604 hasn't been back in almost 5 days :o (2006-10-14, 22:13:01) - who are you guys talking to? ???  ;)
Title: Re: Can I add RR501's/TM751's to my setup?
Post by: vhoang on October 19, 2006, 06:06:31 PM
 :o