X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: jcgv on January 19, 2007, 02:51:45 PM
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This Appliance Module when tuned off allows some current and voltage to flow throughout it. I measured voltage with no appliance connected (Using a Floke 79 multimeter wih less than 0.01% inacuracy) and when the device was off the voltage was 108 Volts.
I got a TV AC adapter fried some time ago and now I got a bell fried too. Recently I did a test by connecting a 12V adapter with a siren connected to it and I can hear some low volume sound in the siren. I guess this low voltage has damages my previous connected devices.
¿What could X10 experts say about this issue?, ¿Is really safe to connect appliances to this AM486 X10 module?
Respectfully,
Juan C.
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The appliance module has a Local Control Sensing Circuit in it and there is always some small current flowing out of it. With only the high impedance meter on the output it is possible it would read near line voltage. With a normal load it would be much lower.
There are mods [warantee voided] to stop this current. Another way is put a power tap on the output so you can put the load you want to control and a 7 watt incandescent night light on the same controlled outlet.
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Thank you Brian for your reply.
- ¿Where could I find these mods?
- ¿Would you say this module should not be user with devices now draining much current from the module?
- If this is not the correct module, ¿Which one should I use?
Juan C.
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I have done an unscientific test of the sensing current and it is only around 2 ma DC if memory serves me. That is not much current. Lamp modules also have this current.
The appliance modules are the best for the devices you listed as dimming modules can do damage if dimmed or the controlled device doesn't like the modified wave the triac [electronic dimming component].
One place for mods:
http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm (http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm)
If you are not electronically and mechanically inclined. You may not want to do such things. Warranty is gone also.
There are 2 mods for the Appliance Modules. One [the jumper] disables the local control working, but not the actual current on the outlet.
The other disables the current [diode cut] but sometimes toggling the local on off switch still turns on the module.
I have done both in the same module for disabling current and control turns on the device.
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Brian, thank you for your reply.
Well, I took and old Radio Shack Appliance Module Cat No 61-2681B (the same AM486 with a different brand) and cut the diode as explained in Ido Bartana's "Defeating local current sensing" section for Appliance Module and it solve the problem. Now my siren doesn't sound when the mmodule is off.
In newer modules the "Disabling local control on the newer appliance module" procedure must be used.
Thank you again and thanks to Ido Bartana for his excellent site.
Juan C.
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You are welcome.
Glad you have it fixed.
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In the interest of efficiency and convenience I tried using an AM486 to control a small vacuum used as a dust collector for a miter saw. It worked but not like I expected. It turned the unit on and off but it didn't stay off. It came right back on within a few seconds of being turned off and it stayed on until unplugged. It did not come on when first connected. The "collector" is a DeWalt DC500 mini-vac with stated power requirements of 2.6 Amps DC at 12-18 Volts. It does not state the AC load but a simple calculation reveals a power rating of around 50 watts. Since it can run on either AC or DC, I can reasonably assume an internal rectifier circuit which perhaps has a transformer input although at these power levels it could easily be solid state. This does not seem like proper behavior for the AM486 and I've observed similar behavior on lamp modules such as LM485. I used the lamp module to control a string of LED Christmas lights managed by AHP. It was all fine except that "off" turned out to be "dim slightly." The string of lights was wired in such a way that no distinct power conversion was done. The series-connected LEDs were sized by count and load to present a 115VAC load, probably a very high impedance load, at the plug.
Neither of these modules performed acceptably for my applications nor would they pass any acceptance test for leakage current I've seen in more than 40 years of electrical and electronic experience. Is there a solution to these problems? I don't know but a place to start is tighter specs and better production control.
I'm not impressed by the current state of affairs.
Bill Babb
IBM Retiree
Twitter: Oldbill70
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The current is normal on those modules. Older ones had both Local Control Sensing and on or off sensing. The newer appliance modules have just the on or off sensing.
Other brand modules like Smarthome's Insteon line also have a small sensing current.
Must be below an allowable rating as all of them have UL or ETL approval.
Sometimes you can swamp the current with a small night light bulb on the output along with the load you are controlling.
In your mini-vac case. It sounds like there was an inductive spike that triggered it back on.
If you are interested there are some schematics of the older modules here.
http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm
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Jason B, on 24 Sept 2013 - 16:21, said:
I made a video to show what's going on. And here is work around with that RF adapter I was telling you about and having to plug something else into the outlet. This would also work for those that have small leds plugged in that still light up.
Here the x10 outlet is OFF, and you can see when the 3 outlet surge protector is plugged in, the red led light, stays ON. When i add in the night light, it then senses the outlet if off, then the RF device works. I reallly would like a way around doing all this. There has to be something simplier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTI9TvhzXNQ
Also, now that sr227 can't even fit back into the wall with all the wires.
Ok, I'm trying to do this SAME thing again, but with one of othese, instead of replacing the outlet:
(http://cache-ma1.smarthome.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/64x64/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/0/2002.jpg)
I'm a little confused on how to get this to work again, and would cutting the jumper make this work?
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Local_Control_for_Lamp_And_Appliance_Modules
http://www.x10community.com/marko/2006/06/disabling_the_local_control_fe.html
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If the AM486 is new enough to be sold as CFL Friendly. There is no jumper or diode to cut. The only very small current on the output is for sensing if it is On or Off. If you disable it. The mechanical ratchet switch will pulse a few time trying to change its output.
There where two local control sensing modifications for the older hardware. The jumper only stops the module from falsely going back ON but not remove the sensing current. There was a diode you also had to cut to disable the local control current. The small am I on or off sensing current will still be there.
If a night light bulb is too large to allow proper use due to space. Some have used a resistor inside a plug to squash the current.
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Are you BLH from the cocoontech forums also?
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Yes I am BLH on a few forums.
Brian H. Here and a few others. Tuicemen's, JV Digital Engineering, Universal Designs.
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I don't know if this is the newer module, but it looks like there's a date code on this, I bought it used. So if we can find the diode to cut, that would do the same thing as the nightlight, or the resister?
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That's about as old as they come. Early 2005.
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Thanks. I think I found the diode fix??? And this will do same thing as the night light or resistor, correct?
http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mod3.html
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2005 is before the CFL friendly model was being sold.
I would cut the jumper shown in your previous post and the diode. I have done both in a few modules.
That should fix the problem without needing the extra small load on the output in most situations. A real small am I on or off sensing current is still there. Unless your glowing indicator is real sensitive. No extra external load should be needed.
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It just occurred to me that the name used by X10 (X10 USA, X10 WTI, X10 ???) along with their headquarters' location might be as good an indicator as the date codes. They did seem to relocate often with an accompanying name change.
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Yes you found the diode. I forgot that there was another site with the information was still in operation.
You may want to just do the diode and leave the jumper.
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EDIT, crap. It worked for a few times, but only after a few seconds of plugging the appliance module back in. It clicks, but I think it needs that extra load that I'm missing. For some reason it works right after I plug the module into the wall socket for a few times. Looks like I have to resort to the mini light or resistor. Darn!
How would cutting that jumper benefit me? That's is you have a wall switch that turns an outlet on and off?
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Sorry if I went down a offset path on this.
Cut the jumper. As it disables the local control function.
Then see if it still acts strange.
Did I read that the module is in an outlet that has a regular wall switch controlling it and not an X10 wall switch controlling the outlet?
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Sorry if I went down a offset path on this.
Cut the jumper. As it disables the local control function.
Then see if it still acts strange.
Did I read that the module is in an outlet that has a regular wall switch controlling it and not an X10 wall switch controlling the outlet?
It's ok, was crossing fingers. In this situation, no, there is no wall switch controlling this outlet, in this instance. Still cut the jumper? Could that help?
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Yes cut the jumper.
Then see what happens.
If the very low current Red indicator still glows or turning off a inductive load kicks it back on. Then the external small load maybe needed.
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Yes cut the jumper.
Then see what happens.
If the very low current Red indicator still glows or turning off a inductive load kicks it back on. Then the external small load maybe needed.
Ok, finally found it and cut jumper. See pic. Will re-assemble and test again. There is only one jumper it seems, so this must be it.
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Darn, didn't work. Looks like I'm going to need to add the led night light, to get more current in there. What's the best way to do that with this module. Get a cube, with two plugs, and then plug in my device and the nightlight? Just trying to see best way to fit it in. I did same thing with the Sr227 outlet, but it was easier, since it's an outlet, and this has 2 pin plug on the bottom.
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Yes that is the jumper to be cut.
The problem is the Hunter Douglas interface on the output will not turn off, it has a indicator that is still glowing dimly or physically goes back on when turned off?
Easiest way is to use a power cube and incandescent night light along with the load on the output.
Some folks use a different load like an old wall wart power supply. If the wall wart is a switcher it could cause noise when on. That could cause a on works off does not situation.
Some have wired a resistor inside a replacement plug and use it in place of the night light bulb.
I thought someone tried to solder the wire across the output inside the module but don't remember if it worked or physically fit.
47,000 Ohm 1/2 watt should be fine for a resistor. Some have gone as low as 33,000 Ohms 1 watt.
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Yes that is the jumper to be cut.
The problem is the Hunter Douglas interface on the output will not turn off, it has a indicator that is still glowing dimly or physically goes back on when turned off?
Easiest way is to use a power cube and incandescent night light along with the load on the output.
Some folks use a different load like an old wall wart power supply. If the wall wart is a switcher it could cause noise when on. That could cause a on works off does not situation.
Some have wired a resistor inside a replacement plug and use it in place of the night light bulb.
I thought someone tried to solder the wire across the output inside the module but don't remember if it worked or physically fit.
47,000 Ohm 1/2 watt should be fine for a resistor. Some have gone as low as 33,000 Ohms 1 watt.
Thanks sir. The hunter douglas unit has a watch battery inside, to sense when power is turned on/off. Like if it was a normal switch controlling that outlet, it would work of course. There is a light that comes on, just to tell you it's working when on/off. only then I think.
SO this would work
(https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/homedepotcanada/p_1000154172.jpg?$pipGallery$&id=HHBT32&fmt=jpg&fit=constrain,1&wid=500&hei=419)
I have an extra sr227, but don't want to deal with replacing the outlet, since last time I did in the other situation (my video) was super hard to fit back in the wall. Also, I swear the outlet I did that too, when it's ON, has caused some other devices not to work when that outlet is ON. Don't know if it's the x10 outlet or not that's the issue.
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The power tap you have in the photo in a two prong version to fit the Appliance Module would work fine.
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Thanks, and I just figured out something cool! Instead of a night light, an iphone charger block will work!!! Those are super small, and barley noticeable!
(http://ep.yimg.com/ay/wearethewirelessboys/apple-iphone-5-usb-power-plug-24.gif)
Cool right? Super small.
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Cool right? Super small.
And, potentially useful although one needs to be aware that some switching power supplies are troublemakers for X10.
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If you get a I can turn it On but not Off.
Then it is a noise maker as Dave pointed out.
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If you get a I can turn it On but not Off.
Then it is a noise maker as Dave pointed out.
Ok, yea, you are right! I can't turn it off! Back to the led night light! Now, I can move this behind a dresser and then can make it invisible :)
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Thank you for the update.
I am glad you where able to get what you wanted to work.
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Thank you for all the fast replies and help!
It's a shame no one really makes an option to do this that will work with X10?