X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: ccrider67 on January 25, 2007, 07:59:27 PM

Title: Gas Fireplace
Post by: ccrider67 on January 25, 2007, 07:59:27 PM

I have a gas fireplace that I would like to automate.  Customer no-support at X10 told me I needed a XPS3 wall switch (which required a neutral wire).  Upon closer examination, the switch that turns on the gas fireplace, while it looks like a standard light switch, is actually used as a "toggle" type switch.  There are two skinny wires (one red, one white) wrapped around the two posts on the light switch.  I've tried a WS467 switch and that doesn't work either.  Has anyone done this or can anyone suggest anything?

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on January 25, 2007, 09:42:51 PM

Sounds like the switch is actually switching low-voltage.

If you have an appropriate meter, you can measure the voltage between the two wires if it isn't 120 (or very close) volts AC, then the standard X10 wall switches won't work.

Let us know.

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: Dan Lawrence on January 25, 2007, 10:38:14 PM

If it's low-voltage, the transformer is either its own or tap off the doorbell circuit. If it is powered by its own transformer, you can control the transformer with an applicance module or a univeral module, which has contacs for any voltage.. If it's a branch off the doorbell circuit, you are out of luck. :(

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: ccrider67 on January 26, 2007, 10:32:06 AM

The installation manual states that "this appliance does not require 110-120 VAC to operate".  One model of this fireplace has a transformer, but I have the "Standing Piilot Ignition" (if that means anything to anyone) and it apparently has no transformer.  In the control area underneath the fireplace there are two receptables (plug-ins) labeled for a REMOTE and a FAN; these are wired.  I checked and the optional accessory remote for the fireplace consists of a receiver (which plugs into the receptacle) and the transmitter (hand-held remote), but that setup costs about $150 or more and I was hoping to get it done with X10. 
There is nothing there to "plug into" an X10 appliance module.  Any ideas anyone?  Is it even possible?

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: Dan Lawrence on January 26, 2007, 03:01:30 PM

I suspect from your explanation that you can't use X10 with your fireplace. 

One other question: Where does it get its power from? It's low-voltage, what's the source of the power it uses?  Batteries?

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on January 26, 2007, 04:34:05 PM

Quote from: ccrider67 on January 26, 2007, 10:32:06 AM

The installation manual states that "this appliance does not require 110-120 VAC to operate".  One model of this fireplace has a transformer, but I have the "Standing Piilot Ignition" (if that means anything to anyone) and it apparently has no transformer.  In the control area underneath the fireplace there are two receptables (plug-ins) labeled for a REMOTE and a FAN; these are wired.  I checked and the optional accessory remote for the fireplace consists of a receiver (which plugs into the receptacle) and the transmitter (hand-held remote), but that setup costs about $150 or more and I was hoping to get it done with X10. 
There is nothing there to "plug into" an X10 appliance module.  Any ideas anyone?  Is it even possible?

If it is being controlled by a switch then it must be getting voltage from somewhere.  Since you can't find where it is connected to the AC house wiring, the remaining option would be to do what the wall switch is doing now.  Does the manual mention a thermostat connection?  In all likelyhood, that is what the wall switch is connected to.  In which case (and with your observation of the "thin wires" connected to it) the switch is probably only passing a low voltage (you should really check this with a volt-meter just to be safe!) as a signal to turn on.  What you could do in such a case is use a UM506 Universal Module plugged in to a nearby AC outlet with the existing switch wiring extended and connected to the screw terminals on the UM506.

See the UM506 Manual (link) (http://software.x10.com/pub/manuals/um506-is.pdf) for more information on using it to control low-voltage devices.

Best yet, the UM506 is only about $19.00!!   :D

Here is a link to X10's catalog page for the UM506 should you be interested: http://www.x10.com/automation/x10_um506.htm# (http://www.x10.com/automation/x10_um506.htm#)

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: HA Dave on January 26, 2007, 09:09:34 PM

Quote from: ccrider67 on January 26, 2007, 10:32:06 AM

In the control area underneath the fireplace there are two receptacles (plug-ins) labeled for a REMOTE and a FAN; these are wired. 

If the receptacles underneath the fireplace are wired ....there is a pretty good chance this is (the key to) your power source.

Check the receptacles and see if they work at 110-120 volts (I would plug in a light).

If the light works, AND flipping the switch makes the fireplace work. Track down the breaker and see if that will work as an ON/OFF switch.

If that works...install an in-line non-dimable X10 module in a place (likely a junction box) that will NOT effect other receptacles or devices that may be on the same curcit.

My lawyer asked me to remind you I have never seen your set-up and cannot be held responceable for my internet ramblings.

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: ccrider67 on January 28, 2007, 06:10:23 PM

Thanks for the replies, Dave & Bill.

Bill, your suggestion sounds like it may work, but I don't think wires running down the wall would look too good.

Dave, I don't know if your suggestion would work or not because due to my being "electrically challenged", I would no idea how to implement it!! 

But thanks anyway guys.

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: roger1818 on February 06, 2007, 04:30:10 PM

Most Gas Fireplaces use the heat from the pilot light to heat a thermo-couple to generate a small voltage.  This voltage can be switched on and off to turn the fireplace on and off without any AC power so that the fireplace will still work in an outage.  Many also have a fan which is AC powered which obviously doesn't work in a power outage.  If you have such a fan, you can use the power source from it to drive a universal module (mine actually has an outlet for an optional remote control module). 

The only problem with this approach is that in a power outage the universal module will remain stuck in its previous state and, depending how you wire it, the fireplace may be stuck on or off in a power outage.  You can get around this by using two switches (one in series with the universal module and one in parallel).  The switch in series would normally be left on and only be switched off if the universal module is stuck on and the switch in parallel would normally be off, but be switched on only if the universal module is stuck off.  Alternately you could use a single DPDT centre off switch and have on, off and remote positions.

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: driver8rws on March 13, 2007, 11:56:35 PM

 Awesome !!    Thanks for the GREAT info Roger1818 !!
 I had no clue how my fireplace switch worked even when the power was out !

 So it looks like the low voltage UM506 X10 Switch is the way to go !!
 
 BUT where can I get a Single Pole, Double Throw switch with Center OFF position ??
  Do you just mean one like THIS ??  http://www.modelrectifier.com/search/product-view.asp?ID=1251
  I suppose I could get one from RadioShack ?

  How would you wire it ??   i.e. can you do a diagram for me ?

Title: Re: Gas Fireplace
Post by: roger1818 on March 14, 2007, 02:11:08 PM

Quote from: driver8rws on March 13, 2007, 11:56:35 PM

BUT where can I get a Single Pole, Double Throw switch with Center OFF position ??
  Do you just mean one like THIS ??  http://www.modelrectifier.com/search/product-view.asp?ID=1251
  I suppose I could get one from RadioShack ?

That switch should be fine (you only need single pole, but double pole will work just as well).  You should also be able to get a similar switch from RadioShack.  Whatever switch you choose; make sure that it meets the specifications for your fireplace.  Assuming it uses a thermocouple, the voltage and current should be very low, but it is worth double-checking the requirements in the fireplace installation manual or with the manufacturer.

Quote

How would you wire it ??   i.e. can you do a diagram for me ?

I have drawn a diagram below using a SPDT Center Off switch (using a DPDT CO switch you would just ignore the second row of connections on the switch).  In the up (or On) position the fireplace will always be on regardless of the state of the UM506.  In the middle (or Off) position the fireplace will always be off regardless of the state of the UM506.  In the bottom (or Auto) position, the fireplace will be on when the UM506 is on and off when the UM506 is off.  You would normally keep the switch in the Auto position and only use the other positions in the case of a power failure.  I haven't actually tried this yet myself, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

(http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/6473/x10fireplaceny6.gif)
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