X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: marineau on February 18, 2007, 09:59:10 AM

Title: UPS and noise filter
Post by: marineau on February 18, 2007, 09:59:10 AM
I have a problem with my UPS... When my UPS is connected on powerline, few moduls don't work.
I tried to connect my UPS on my MonsterPowerBar, but I have the same problem.

I would like to make my own 15A noise filter...

Does it exist a Howto document to build mine, or a schematic 15A ?

Does anyone did his, and does you obtained a good result with this ?

Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: JeffVolp on February 18, 2007, 10:23:40 AM
Quote
I would like to make my own 15A noise filter...

I have designed a 15A filter, and even have a printed circuit board for it.  This was a unique case that required an attenuated signal to pass, and the commercially available AF120 was not appropriate.  Considering the cost of the printed circuit board, case, and related components, the commercial AF120 is a much more cost effective solution for your situation.  A little searching with Google will find you one for under $20 (plus shipping).

Jeff
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: marineau on March 06, 2007, 01:53:05 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on February 18, 2007, 10:23:40 AM
This was a unique case that required an attenuated signal to pass, and the commercially available AF120 was not appropriate.  Considering the cost of the printed circuit board, case, and related components, the commercial AF120 is a much more cost effective solution for your situation.  A little searching with Google will find you one for under $20 (plus shipping).

I received my AF120 from SmartHomeUSA.com today !
I connected my UPS on the AF120, and the AF120 is connected on the phaseA!
My MiniController is connected on the phaseA
My Chime modul is connected on the phaseA
If I disconnect my UPS, my Chime modul work well.
If I connect my UPS my Chime modul don't work.

Does anyone have an idea to help me ?
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 02:26:47 PM
Quote
I connected my UPS on the AF120, and the AF120 is connected on the phaseA!
My MiniController is connected on the phaseA
My Chime modul is connected on the phaseA
If I disconnect my UPS, my Chime modul work well.
If I connect my UPS my Chime modul don't work.

The AF120 is a good filter that should isolate the UPS both as a "signal sucker" and as a noise source.  If that didn't solve the problem, then the signal level at the chime module may be marginal even without the UPS plugged in.

To help you further, would you please provide more information:

What type of UPS is it?
What does the UPS provide power to?
How close physically is the UPS to the chime module?
Do they share the same circuit?
Are you certain that both the MiniController and Chime are on the same phase?
    (Phases normally alternate down each side in a distribution panel).
Do you have problems with any other modules?
If not, are they also on "phase A"?
Do you have access to a X10 signal level monitor?

It would help if you could describe your entire system, including a list of electronic devices.

Jeff
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: marineau on March 06, 2007, 03:23:46 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp
What type of UPS is it?
SmartProUps Net 1400

Quote from: JeffVolp
What does the UPS provide power to?
On this UPS is connected 2 TV, 3 PC, 3 LCD Monitor, 2 Echostar(dish), 2 DVD, 1 VCR, 1 external HD, 1 monochrome monitor and 1 Audio Receiver. (Total Load 6.5A measured with my AmperMeter)

Quote from: JeffVolp
How close physically is the UPS to the chime module?
Now, it at 25ft, but don't work anywhere in house when UPS is connected .

Quote from: JeffVolp
Do they share the same circuit?
NO, My UPS is alone on his breaker.

Quote from: JeffVolp
Are you certain that both the MiniController and Chime are on the same phase?
    (Phases normally alternate down each side in a distribution panel).
Yes I'm sure, all modules are in same phase, I moved few breaker on bus bar for that all X10 modul will be on same phase.

Quote from: JeffVolp
Do you have problems with any other modules?
If not, are they also on "phase A"?
Others modules work fine... I have two Chime module, and I have a same problem with them.

Quote from: JeffVolp
Do you have access to a X10 signal level monitor?
No

Quote from: JeffVolp
It would help if you could describe your entire system, including a list of electronic devices.
All electronic device are connected on my UPS, describe above. I have a themopump, bu I have a same problem when turn OFF his breaker !
I tried to turn OFF many breakers, I have a same problem.

I resolve a problem when I disonnect UPS from AF120.

When (no coupler connected):
        I tried to connect my UPS on other phase(PhaseB), and I don't need to use AF120, because I don't have a problem .
When coupler is connected:
        I tried to connect my UPS on other phase(PhaseB), and I  have a same problem than phaseA.

If I connect my Chime module near of MiniController (same double outlet):
    it work fine anytime, UPS connected or NOT on PhaseA (coupler connected or NOT)
    it work fine anytime, UPS connected or NOT on PhaseB (coupler connected or NOT)
    it work fine anytime, UPS connected or NOT on AF120 on PhaseA (coupler connected or NOT)
    it work fine anytime, UPS connected or NOT on AF120 on PhaseB (coupler connected or NOT)

In others words, UPS send probably a noise on his phase... and if Coupler is connected it send probably a noise on second phase !

No easy to found :-\
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 05:08:05 PM
Thanks for the detailed info.  So, it is unique to the chime modules.

Let me think about this for awhile, and I'll try to find out what is unique about the chime module.

Jeff
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: marineau on March 06, 2007, 05:17:14 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 05:08:05 PM
Thanks for the detailed info.  So, it is unique to the chime modules.
Let me think about this for awhile, and I'll try to find out what is unique about the chime module.

Because I don't have a X10 signal level monitor, i use these Chime modules to be sure that I don't have a unwanted noise or bad signal to my wiring house.

Thanks

Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 07:04:10 PM
Your tests with the coupler in and out really confirm the problem is the UPS or the loads powered by it.  Several of those devices are known to cause problems, but the AF120 should have isolated them.  I am still puzzled why the AF120 didn't solve the problem.  This is obvious, but would you confirm you placed the AF120 in series with the UPS, not just plugged into the same duplex outlet.

Here we have a situation similar to yours, with a single circuit powering most of the loads known to be unfriendly to X10.  That circuit is isolated by a big XPF filter right at the distribution panel.

Aside from the obvious differences and using a different IC, the signal interface of the SC546 Chime Module is virtually identical to the signal interface of a standard LM465 Lamp module.  Even though they use different custom ICs, I would expect the signal detector portions to be similar.  So, if all your other X10 modules work fine, I do not understand why the Chime Module does not.

From your latest message, it sounds like you use the chime module as some sort of X10 fault indicator.  Does a LM465 lamp module plugged in at the exact same location with identical house and unit codes work correctly?

Since you obviously have a significant investment in electronics, it would be a good idea to pick up a X10 signal meter, such as the Elk ESM1, to check signal levels throughout your house to find out exactly what is going on.

Jeff
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: marineau on March 06, 2007, 07:38:24 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 07:04:10 PM
From your latest message, it sounds like you use the chime module as some sort of X10 fault indicator.  Does a LM465 lamp module plugged in at the exact same location with identical house and unit codes work correctly?
Yes a LM465 work on same outlet, so that a Chime don't work !
Quote from: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 07:04:10 PM
Since you obviously have a significant investment in electronics, it would be a good idea to pick up a X10 signal meter, such as the Elk ESM1, to check signal levels throughout your house to find out exactly what is going on.
Maybe is a good  idea ! But with bad result with x10, maybe I'm planning to drop x10 from my house and maybe i will use Insteon... Isteon use 1 to 3 cycles to turn ON a lamp so that X10 needing of 32 cycles for same things...
If exist once error (noise) on this 32 cycles , a module don't want respond !
What is your opinion about this ?
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 08:46:34 PM
Quote
Isteon use 1 to 3 cycles to turn ON a lamp so that X10 needing of 32 cycles for same things...
If exist once error (noise) on this 32 cycles , a module don't want respond !
What is your opinion about this ?

I'm not sure what you mean by X10 needing 32 cycles for the same things.  Are you referring to the fact that a X10 command is 22 cycles of 60Hz long?  Or it takes sending 32 commands before something happens?  Clearly, nothing can be done to speed up the X10 protocol.  However, speed is not an issue for many things that are normally controlled via X10.

You appear to have a significant investment in X10 equipment.  Certainly, you can throw it away and buy all new Insteon, or whatever the current vogue is.  Our you could invest $70 in a signal meter from Home Depot (search HomeDepot.com for 4813).  That would let you find out what is going on.  Then it might only take a few more filters to get your X10 system running 100%.

(Edited to correct typo)

Jeff
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: marineau on March 06, 2007, 09:34:47 PM
Quote from: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 08:46:34 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by X10 needing 32 cycles for the same things.  Are you referring to the fact that a X10 command is 22 cycles of 60Hz long? 
That I mean, is X10 a needing to 32/60hz sec to turn ON or OFF a modul. If exist once error while there 32 cycles ... no command !


Quote from: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 08:46:34 PM
Our you could invest $70 in a signal meter from Home Depot (search HomeDepot.com for 4313).  That would let you find out what is going on.  Then it might only take a few more filters to get your X10 system running 100%
I just found 4813 (but not for 4313)... Maybe that I will buy and try this... But, a this time my system work fine, just CHIME modul don't work with my UPS.  The thing that I don't like of the X10 protocol, is that it is a little slow, and I know that I can't change this !

I will try to turn OFF one by one all electronic device connected on my UPS, maybe that I will found a reason !

Thanks Jeff, for your help !
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 11:24:26 PM
Sorry about the typo for the HD search.  I'll fix that post.

Now I understand what you meant about the length of the commands.  What confused me was 32 cycles.  A normal command is transmitted in 22 cycles, but there is built-in redundancy.  The data pattern is actually transmitted twice in that 22 cycle frame.  For most commands, only one half has to be received correctly.  It actually takes 2 sequential commands to turn a device on or off.

There is a tradeoff between bandwidth and noise immunity.  In general, lower bandwidth signals have higher noise immunity.  X10 can work perfectly fine in the presence of many types of noise.  Only noise that mimics actual X10 commands (similar frequency and intensity) will cause a significant problem.  Unfortunately, some electronic devices such as compact fluorescent lights and switching power supplies emit noise in the X10 frequency range.

From your last post, it sounds like your automation system is working fine now.  Maybe the AF120 did help there.  However, if a lamp module works, I don't know why a chime module with similar input circuitry would not.

Jeff
Title: Re: UPS and noise filter
Post by: marineau on March 07, 2007, 08:41:48 AM
Quote from: JeffVolp on March 06, 2007, 11:24:26 PM
Now I understand what you meant about the length of the commands.  What confused me was 32 cycles.  A normal command is transmitted in 22 cycles, but there is built-in redundancy.  The data pattern is actually transmitted twice in that 22 cycle frame.  For most commands, only one half has to be received correctly.  It actually takes 2 sequential commands to turn a device on or off.

Probably I  don't understood this !

I believed that when I send data to CM11A:
   StartCode =8bit = 8 cycles
   HouseCode +  UnitCode =8bit = 8 cycles
   StartCode =8bit = 8 cycles
   HouseCode +  CommandCode =8bit = 8 cycles
So I believed that a total byte sent by CM11A to powerline was 32 cycles.

Below your total (22), so a StartCode have 8 bit, but a CM11A send to powerline lower than 8 cycles ?

Sorry for this misunderstanding !

Thanks









Title: Re: UPS and Noise Filter
Post by: JeffVolp on March 07, 2007, 10:22:13 AM
A standard command, in powerline cycles, is as follows:


It normally takes two commands to do something with a 3-cycle gap between.  The first identifies which module should take action, and the second tells it what to do.  Total "line time" is normally 47 cycles.

More detailed information on the protocol is available directly from the X10 website:

TECH NOTE: X-10 Communications Protocol and Power Line Interface (http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/technote.pdf)
(It is 1.3MB, and will take time to download if you have a slow connection.)
Jeff


[TTA Edit: Added description to LINK; created List for improved data readability.]