X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: James_D on June 17, 2007, 06:38:32 PM

Title: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: James_D on June 17, 2007, 06:38:32 PM
I have read about this problem in other posts and I have done the two mods suggested for this unit (diode disconnect and jumper cut) without success.

Here's what I am trying to do...
I have a projector screen (Da-Lite Cosmopolitan) that has a motor to raise and lower the screen electrically. It was originally operated by a rocker switch with three leads...one common, one for up and one for down. 120V is applied to the switch and connecting the common to one of the other leads results in the desired function.
I wanted to make the process remote controlled...enter X10.
I put two Appliance modules on the household circuit with different Unit addresses (A15 and A16). The output from one of these is connected to the "UP" wire and the common wire and the other is connected to the "DOWN" wire and the common wire.
To avoid the possibility of both of these switches being ON at the same time, I created macros in Active Home Pro for turning the modules on and off...the "ON" macro for each function first turns the other Appliance module OFF and waits one second before turning its own module ON.
Each module works perfectly if it is the only one plugged in. If I plug them BOTH in then turning either one on causes the projector motor to hum loudly and not work...not a good sound.
I suspected voltage and current leak through the Appliance modules and discovered that was correct when I tested with a voltmeter. I had 108V prior to doing the two mods and then 70V remaining after the two mods, but the problem persists.

Has anyone got any suggestions on where to go from here?
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: HA Dave on June 17, 2007, 09:58:50 PM
Quote from: James_D on June 17, 2007, 06:38:32 PM

Has anyone got any suggestions on where to go from here?


My son ran into a similar problem with his motorized screen.

I like your idea of a macro.... but I wouldn't trust my screen completely to a macro.... (and my screen (http://www.davesdomainonline.com/ht/ht) isn't even motorized).

I think I would use a relay to control the "up" and "down" wires. So even if BOTH units would turn on, whichever unit switched first, it would disable the other till the first one turned off. I would then control the relay(s) with universal modules (UM506)  (this is a link)  (http://www.x10.com/automation/um506_s.html) That should give you BOTH the safety and voltage you need.

It was my theater (http://www.davesdomainonline.com/ht/ht) that got me into X10. Now I turning on the theater with BVC Voice Command (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9918.0). Your going to love this stuff!
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: James_D on June 17, 2007, 10:28:31 PM
Thanks Dave

Any suggestion about what relay(s) you mentioned to get and how to hook them up would be appreciated.
I can give that a try if I know what parts to get.
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: HA Dave on June 17, 2007, 10:34:36 PM
Quote from: James_D on June 17, 2007, 10:28:31 PM

Any suggestion about what relay(s) you mentioned to get and how to hook them up would be appreciated.
I can give that a try if I know what parts to get.


There are a couple "diagram type guys" here at the forum, that may be of more help with that than myself. But on 2nd thought, have you called Da-Lite and asked them if they have an "X10 kit" of some sort.
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: James_D on June 18, 2007, 12:52:49 AM
I checked out the web site for DaLite earlier in the day. Their RF remote solution is $470 and the IR one is $380. A bit rich I thought...
NO mention on the site of an X10 solution, but I can try a call...maybe their tech support has some ideas regarding the hookup of the two appliance modules simultaneously to control the two functions.
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: Oldtimer on June 18, 2007, 08:18:31 AM
Quote from: James_D on June 17, 2007, 06:38:32 PM

Each module works perfectly if it is the only one plugged in. If I plug them BOTH in then turning either one on causes the projector motor to hum loudly and not work...not a good sound.


If this were my project the first thing I would do before I bought or built anything would be to get a copy of the internal wiring diagram for the device.  From your symptoms the simplest answer may lie in accessing the device wiring internally.
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: dave w on June 18, 2007, 12:55:21 PM
James D

As Dave_X10 mentioned, you don't want to use two appliance modules in the mannerr you were originally,  to power each of the screen motor windings.  Even with the macros you can still have both appliance modules turn ON at the same time resulting in both forward and reverse windings of the screen motor powered at the same time. You can still use two appliance modules but use one module to power a relay (DPDT or SPDT 120v AC coil) The N.O. and N.C. poles of the relay would go to the each of the motor windings. The second appliance module would provide the power to the common terminal of the relay. The relay's use  ensures both windings of the screen motor can NOT be powered simultaneously. I use similar setup for power drapes. Dave's recommendation of using a Universal module and a low voltage coil relay would work equally well, but you would need additional components of a power supply for the relay coil.
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: HA Dave on June 18, 2007, 06:00:15 PM
I also did a little searching.....I hope this (link) (http://www.cinemasource.com/articles/screen_wire.pdf) is useful. At least it's printable. Please keep us in the loop James D.... so we know how this works out for you.
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: James_D on June 18, 2007, 09:57:30 PM
Thanks to both Daves for your very helpful advice.
The link sent in Dave_X10_L's last post will likely provide some more insights, but interestingly the "X10" solution suggested in this article is the same as mine except it didn't even consider the possibility of both appliance modules being on at the same time which is why I made a macro. It just suggests to use two AM486 appliance modules, one for up and one for down. Clearly the writer has not actually tried this...

I am clear about how the relay switch, controlled by one of the appliance modules, will work to select either UP or DOWN, making it impossible to have both on concurrently. Then, the other module can switch the common on and off and basically become the START/STOP switch. Thanks for that, Dave_W.

Now I look for a 120V SPDT or DPDT relay. I will look on the internet...any suggestions are welcome.

Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: dave w on June 19, 2007, 12:21:42 PM
Quote from: James_D on June 18, 2007, 09:57:30 PM
Clearly the writer has not actually tried this...

I am clear about how the relay switch, controlled by one of the appliance modules, will work to select either UP or DOWN, making it impossible to have both on concurrently. Then, the other module can switch the common on and off and basically become the START/STOP switch. Thanks for that, Dave_W.

Now I look for a 120V SPDT or DPDT relay. I will look on the internet...any suggestions are welcome.


I agree James_D.  Appliance Modules can "False" ON, especially during a brown out. Two appliance modules; one for UP winding and one for DOWN winding, is not a fail safe solution (just ask the last drape motor I burned up).

You can get 120V AC coil DPDT relays at Radio Shark.
Other sources include:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/RLY-453/500/120_VAC_RELAY,_DPDT_12_AMPS_.html
Usually these surplus outlets also have 120V relays, but are currently "dry".
http://www.meci.com/index.php
http://www.goldmine-elec.com/

Good luck!
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: James_D on June 19, 2007, 11:20:25 PM
I have ordered a few relays from All Electronics as suggested.

As soon as they arrive I'll hook everything up and report back with (hopefully!) my success!
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: Tuicemen on June 20, 2007, 10:44:48 AM
There are many users that use x10 in their home theater setups.
Some examples Can be found at Accessha (http://www.accessha.com/forums/home-theater-entertainment/)
Try posting there, you may find a user that has something similar to what you want working! ;)
Note: There are other forum sites with dedicated sections for home theater setups!
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: HA Dave on June 20, 2007, 06:00:46 PM
Quote from: James_D on June 19, 2007, 11:20:25 PM

I'll hook everything up and report back


Thank You.
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: James_D on July 19, 2007, 06:57:49 PM
Problem solved!
I received the relays 10 days or so ago but have not had time until now to wire the whole thing up.
The relays from AllElectronics, wired as per Dave's suggestion, make the whole system work perfectly.
A nice solution for about $3.50 total cost for the two relays. I do need to clean and dress it up a bit so I have track and sockets coming and I'll put it all in a box.

Now I can sit back and control almost everything in the home theater system from my chair.
Hmmm...where is that robot to get me a cold one from the fridge...

Thanks for the excellent help!
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: Brian H on July 19, 2007, 07:33:24 PM
Thank you for your update.
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: dave w on July 20, 2007, 12:29:01 PM
Now admit it...ain't this stuff fun!
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is
Post by: cj4331 on August 05, 2007, 01:30:58 PM
James,

You mentioned 2 mods.  I've done cut the jumper on pin 7 but current is still getting through when the appliance module is of--It causes my compact fluorescent to blink.  I can't find any references to the diode disconnect.  Can you point me to some info one that?
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: Brian H on August 05, 2007, 01:44:44 PM
I believe it is here: http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm (http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm)
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: KDR on August 05, 2007, 01:57:46 PM
Another way around this might be to use a Socket Rocket in place of the Appliance Module. All you need to do is program the Socket Rocket to the same House/Unit code.

I have several CFL's in them and have had no side effects and I think X10 has a sale on them right now, 4 for the price of 1.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is
Post by: cj4331 on August 05, 2007, 02:32:05 PM
http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm (http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm) it is.  Thanks I just did that and it fixed the problem.  Thanks!
Title: Re: [HELP] After 2 Mods, Some Voltage STILL Appears at AM486 Output When Unit is OFF?!?
Post by: KDR on August 05, 2007, 02:35:31 PM
Quote from: cj4331 on August 05, 2007, 02:32:05 PM
http://www.geocities.com/idobartana/ it is. Thanks I just did that and it fixed the problem. Thanks!

Good to hear cj4331.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR