X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: quinn on January 26, 2009, 08:47:30 PM
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Hi,
I'm hoping someone can help me figure out what to do with an X-10 Powerhouse issue. I bought a house last summer, and in the last month or so, lights have been turning on by themselves, often in the middle of the night. The light switches in these rooms have a small switch beneath them that works to "lock" each light, but it's getting to be a pain trying to remember to lock my lights at night to make sure they stay off until morning. I found an X-10 Powerhouse IR-543 in a storage closet, and when I plug it in it can turn on/off all of the lights with these lockable switches, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to disable the system so it stops working on a timer. Is there any way to simply turn off the timer system, so all lights can be controlled manually? I don't know how the previous owner set up the timer, but I'd love for the lights to stop coming on at random. :)
Any help is much appreciated -- thanks!
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Is there another box plugged into a outlet. The switches don't have timers built it themselves there has to be another controller somewhere....
Is it random or doe they come on at a regular time?
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.....I can't for the life of me figure out how to disable the system so it stops working on a timer.
If you read here at the forum... and sign up for the "newsletter" at the X10.com Site.. you will become familar with X10 products. Then you will be able to fix or disable the system as you desire.
Is there any way to simply turn off the timer system, so all lights can be controlled manually?
Get someone to replace your X10 switches with manual switches.
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Interesting a house that came with X10 installed. ;)
Are the lights coming on at the same time each day?
I'm assuming that you haven't purchased additional X10 items. Just dealing with an existing installed ones. Right?
This just started about 6 months after you moved in? No problems last summer?
The Powerhouse IR-543 does not have any timers in it. It does have an IR port that that will respond to an X10 remote.
Since this is a new problem, the source of the signal must be new. Have you added any X10 items? Any software with X10 macros?
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Thanks so much for the replies!
I haven't been able to find any other X10 items around the house -- no other boxes or remotes. This just started happening in the last few weeks, though we've lived in the house since July 2008. The only new electronic item in the house is a high-definition LCD TV (Christmas gift). Could that be causing any of this?
Some history: In early January, the bedroom lights came on in the middle of the night. I turned them off, and they came back on again five minutes later. Nothing more happened for a week or so, and then they started coming on by themselves, sometimes in late afternoon and sometimes at night. Soon after, the kitchen light began to do the same thing. The kitchen light usually comes on around the same time every night (8 p.m.), but the bedroom is still pretty random. The Powerhouse controller can turn these lights on and off, as well as the ceiling fan in the bedroom (which, fortunately, doesn't turn on by itself...the last thing I need in the middle of a Maine winter is a ceiling fan!). But I can't get them to stop coming on by themselves.
So we haven't installed any X10 items ourselves -- we're just trying to make sense of the ones already in the house.
Thanks again!
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Barring a supernatural being using X10 to get your attention, something physical is generating a signal that X10 thinks is an ON.
Dave and I were chatting about your problem and were also wondering if you had recently started using CFL bulbs?
One other thing, do the lights come on if your Powerhouse IR-543 stays unplugged?
There's a small chance that a neighbor has X10. While this would be an easy way to explain things, the odds are against it. Best way to test would be to do an "All Lights On" followed by an "All Units Off" while watching your neighbors house in the evening. This may require a 2nd person or a long extension cord.
There's also a possibility that you have a motion detector somewhere, however, it's likely you would of had problems sooner if that were the case. Even if the motion detector had reset itself it wouldn't explain all of your problems.
Most of the time any X10 interference will result in the missing of a signal. It is rare for a noise signal to be interpenetrated as a valid X10 signal.
Jeff: Have you seen interference constantly generate X10 ON signals?
Do have a screwdriver handy? I'd like you to take the plates off your wall switches and tell us what your switch settings are. You should see 2 dials. The one with the letters A-P is the HC setting. The one for the UC has numbers is 1-16. Write these down. For a simple X10 installation, the HCs are likely to all be the same. While you're there use a small screw driver and set them all one forward. e.g. If they say "A", make them "B". If your switches have sequential HCs, make sure that moving one forward doesn't give you a HC that you had before on another switch.
NOTE: While this can be done with the power on, if you have any thoughts that you might be tempted to remove the switch or poke around in the box with your screwdriver, turn off the power first.
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...The Powerhouse controller can turn these lights on and off, as well as the ceiling fan in the bedroom...
As a safety issue...
[li]What kind of switch is controlling the fan? This might require looking behind the switch. If so, follow the advise above and turn off the power first.[/li]
[li]Is there a light with the fan?[/li]
- If so, do the fan and the light share one switch or do they have seperate switches?
[/list]
If a standard dimable light switch has been used for the fan, it needs to be removed. A dimming switch designed for lights is not recommended for fans.
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Most of the time any X10 interference will result in the missing of a signal. It is rare for a noise signal to be interpenetrated as a valid X10 signal.
Jeff: Have you seen interference constantly generate X10 ON signals?
No, I have never seen "interference" generate repeatable commands. I have seen interference from my lab CFLs morph one command into another. I have also seen (and photographed) the ESM1 reporting noise from the Cellet cellphone charger as a "good" X10 command. However, that noise pattern was constantly changing, and I doubt that it would ever produce anything repeatable.
It is possible that noise from multiple sources will beat together to mimic X10 commands. The random nature of that might generate an occasional ON command. But it certainly would not be repeatable.
FYI, I had been chasing a new noise source here. At 117KHz, it is near enough to the X10 120KHz frequency to get right through the XTB bandpass filters. It turned out to be caused by a 120V 4-watt LED light made by Lumoform, LLC. (E27 4W 240 lumens) It is second only to the Cellet cellphone charger as a nasty noise source.
There have been reports of the CM11A doing strange things if its RS232 cable is left hanging like an antenna. I don't think the CM15A has the same problem.
This sounds like some controller somewhere sending commands. Perhaps a clock timer has shifted due to a power failure. Or a motion detector being triggered by animals or other things that go bump in the night...
Jeff
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What do the light switches look like or type they are? here are some examples
ws467 http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ws467.htm
ws14 http://www.x10.com/products/ws14a_product_photo.htm
2466SW http://www.smarthome.com/2466SW/ToggleLinc-Relay-INSTEON-Remote-Control-On-Off-Switch-Non-Dimming-White/p.aspx
If you are not using the automation part of the switch why not just switch them out for good old switch. You buy them cheap like $2 a peice.
We would all love to figure this out (we are crazy like that) but it could be any number of things making a noise signal. It could even be the guy you bought the House off playing games rofl
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Barring a supernatural being using X10 to get your attention
I have to admit, when the lights came on in the middle of the night and then came on again five minutes after I turned them off, this thought definitely entered my mind!
To answer some of your questions:
Nope, no new CFL bulbs in the house.
I used the controller to turn the lights on and off while my husband stood in the window and watched the neighbors' houses, but we couldn't see any of their lights flash on or off. That would be sort of fun, though!
The lights do come on by themselves even when the controller is unplugged.
The ceiling fan in the bedroom doesn't have lights. The wall switch for the fan is a simple on/off switch; no dimmer.
Here's what I found when I removed the plates: the lights in the kitchen were set to A1, and the lights in the bedroom were on A9. (There are similar switches in two other rooms in the house, but these are the only rooms where the lights come on by themselves.) I moved these to B1 and B9, respectively. I checked behind the ceiling fan switch while I was there, and found it attached to a module labeled "Master Wall Switch Module with A.G.C. for single and 3-way applications/Model XPS3."
The Powerhouse controller is set to "A" in the top right corner, and when I try to turn the lights on or off now, using the controller, the kitchen and bedroom lights don't respond but the ceiling fan does. I guess the ceiling fan is still set to A?
As I was standing in the kitchen writing down some of these numbers, the lights switched on again by themselves. Normally this happens when I'm not in the room, so I'm pretty sure it's mocking me at this point. :)
Thanks again for helping me with this!
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ws467 http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ws467.htm
ws14 http://www.x10.com/products/ws14a_product_photo.htm
The light switches are the ws467 model, and the ceiling fan is the ws14.
We would all love to figure this out (we are crazy like that) but it could be any number of things making a noise signal. It could even be the guy you bought the House off playing games
Great -- now I'm picturing him standing outside our house with a remote, laughing while he messes with our heads. ;)
Seriously, you're all awesome for replying. It's been a huge help already. If there's no solution at hand, I'll definitely look into replacing all the switches and hoping that takes care of things...
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................... I'm pretty sure it's mocking me at this point. :)
Once your Home Automation starts mocking you.... it's time to remove it. While your removing the switches you will also want to look for plug-in modules (X10 plug-in boxes) of various sorts that you should remove from the receptacles they are plugged into. Be sure to check areas like the basement for plug-in modules.
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Maybe just switching the house number like you did will help. the fan one is marked "Model XPS3" then it is the right switch for it.
Does any of these lights have CFL's in them? not just new ones maybe the cfl bulb is just now causing the switch to go bad?
Side note do you know how to work your other switches. You can hold the button down and dim and brighten the light. They can be hard to get use to.....Sometime my wife turns ours on and don't realize its dimmed until I come in and hold the button down and it gets allot brighter lol
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Other thing to look at is your outlets. DO they have the same house code wheels on them. Black and red like the switch did? If so they are also x10 controlled.
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I'm going to check whether any of the lights coming on are CFL bulbs -- our outside lights are CFLs, so it's likely some of the interior ones are too.
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...Side note do you know how to work your other switches. You can hold the button down and dim and brighten the light. ...
This only applies for the new soft start switches. If this is an older install, it's likely that they are the older style switches that do not allow local dimming.
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quinn: Are you by any chance anywhere near Atlanta, GA?
I'll be interested to hear if the possessed lights are CFLs?
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quinn: Are you by any chance anywhere near Atlanta, GA?
I'll be interested to hear if the possessed lights are CFLs?
Nope, I'm in Portland, Maine. Atlanta sounds good right about now, though (another foot of snow today).
So I checked, and the bulbs aren't CFLs. After resetting the HC settings last night, the kitchen lights haven't come on by themselves (yet), but the bedroom lights did earlier today. I'm stumped.
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Well maybe your ghost can only control a certain house code rofl
I'm stumped too....... I'm sure Dave_x10_L will let you use his x10 hammer and smack the switch around alittle
Think I would go ahead and get rid of them
Good luck
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...After resetting the HC settings last night, the kitchen lights haven't come on by themselves (yet), but the bedroom lights did earlier today. I'm stumped.
It is a real stumper!
Have you noticed any correlation of the problem and the use of your new high-definition LCD TV?
Wait a day or two and make sure the kitchen lights have stopped coming on by themselves and then try this. Set the bedroom HC/UC the same as the kitchen code. Then assuming the kitchen lights have stopped, the bedroom lights may also. At least it may give us another clue.
FYI...
Code A1 is a default code of sorts. Motion detectors have been know to reset to A1 when batteries are low. I'd be curious if you have motion detector hidden outside somewhere.
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Wait a day or two and make sure the kitchen lights have stopped coming on by themselves and then try this. Set the bedroom HC/UC the same as the kitchen code. Then assuming the kitchen lights have stopped, the bedroom lights may also.
That was my thought, too. The kitchen lights are still off, so maybe there's hope yet. I'm really curious about the motion detector possibility. I know we've got motion-detector lights outside (on the deck, front porch, and along the side of the garage too, I think). It's possible there are some detectors outside that are messing with the indoor lights.
I'm sure Dave_x10_L will let you use his x10 hammer and smack the switch around alittle
That sounds good, too. :)
Again, thanks so much for all your help with this. Even if it comes down to replacing the switches, it's nice to know I've looked into every other possibility!
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The motion lights out side could be be X10 ones? Its a chance that they are sending the same code as some of the indoor lights....or maybe something is messing with the signal and it is causing false signals from the motion lights...
Still a stomper but something else to check out!!!!!!!!
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The motion lights out side could be be X10 ones? Its a chance that they are sending the same code as some of the indoor lights....or maybe something is messing with the signal and it is causing false signals from the motion lights...
Still a stomper but something else to check out!!!!!!!!
Good idea.
Have you noticed any correlation to the lights outside? Dusk/Dawn?
Lights might look like this (http://www.smarthome.com/4080XT/X10-Motion-Detector-Floodlight-PR511-PHS01/p.aspx) with settings like this (http://www.smarthome.com/images/4080big.gif). <--- Click the "this" links.
If so, let us know what those settings are. One of these type lights could be effecting up to 8 or 9 sequential UCs on it's HC. Still not sure why it would take 6 months for it to happen, however.
If you're really bored, you might repeat the "All Lights On"/"All Units Off" test with your controller plugged into a few different outlets. I'm not really expecting any different results but it's possible a signal didn't reach a house next door. It's a "grasping at straws" test that most likely won't give any different results but we're running out of new things to try.
Another thing that has a small chance of helping would be for you to rotate the HC & UCs at least one or two full turns both ways. Return to the same codes. It's rare but I believe there have been a few cases of oxidation on the contacts that have influenced settings.
As mostly a curiosity question, how old is the house?
I'm beginning to think I should document my house for a some future owner for when I move on to the "great automated house in the sky". Of course I could just come back and use X10 to help me haunt the house. ;)
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The motion lights out side could be be X10 ones?
An excellent idea! Some people do set the floodlight (PR511) to turn on lights INSIDE as well as the flood.
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The lights do seem to come on by themselves primarily at dusk, or later, which would fit with the outside motion sensor idea. I'll check the motion lights outside and see if they're X10 too. Only a couple of them work; there are at least two motion lights I've noticed on the garage that never come on. I'll check them all out when I get home from work and report back.
The house is nearly 100 years old, which is probably why the supernatural thoughts entered my mind when the lights first started coming on...a lot of people have lived here and passed on!
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...Some people do set the floodlight (PR511) to turn on lights INSIDE as well as the flood.
She would want to set all the switches to OUT. Correct?
The lights do seem to come on by themselves primarily at dusk, or later, which would fit with the outside motion sensor idea....
...but not why it waited 6 months to start happening.
Hmm... Can the outside lights also be turned off by a regular switch inside the house?
...Only a couple of them work; there are at least two motion lights I've noticed on the garage that never come on....
If the flood lights do turn out to be X10, rotate the HC & UC dials returning them to there original settings. Also flip all the switches to OUT. (Pending verification of my statement and question above.)
Also keep in mind that even though some may not be "working" they still may be sending X10 signals.
...The house is nearly 100 years old, which is probably why the supernatural thoughts entered my mind when the lights first started coming on...a lot of people have lived here and passed on!
If we don't solve it electrically, remind me to send you a blessing for the house and those that have lived there before. :)
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She would want to set all the switches to OUT. Correct?
Yes... all the switches (eight) should be switched to "out" to remove control from the floodlight. The floodlights themselves will continue to work.
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Well, unfortunately I don't have any concrete info about the outside lights yet...the house/yard are so covered in snow and ice at the moment, I wasn't able to get close enough to the lights tonight to determine if they were X10s. It was dark, which also didn't help. There are three flood lights -- one on the front of the house, one on the front of the garage, and one on the side of the garage. I got a semi-decent look at the garage lights, and there's no X10/ActiveHome logo anywhere on them -- that much I could see. Could they still be X10 products? We also have two smaller motion lights, one at the front door and one on the deck. Those I was able to get up close to, and they don't appear to be X10s. I'll try again tomorrow to get a better look at the others.
The outside lights can't be controlled by any indoor switch. Or at least not by a switch I've found anywhere! In other news, the kitchen and bedroom lights both came on again today, so resetting the HC/UCs seems to have failed to stop that part. My husband and I were talking about it, and we've moved on from afraid of supernatural presences to pure annoyance. So, at least that's a step in the right direction. ;D
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......we've moved on from afraid of supernatural presences to pure annoyance.
I would think the supernatural presences would almost be fun. Now you have unplugged the IR543... right? It can actually turn views of the TV into X10 signals.
I still think replacing everything X10 with standard switches would be the way to go.
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...the kitchen and bedroom lights both came on again today, so resetting the HC/UCs seems to have failed to stop that part....
You've never had the lights turn OFF by themselves have you?
Well as I see it we're down to:
- Supernatural influences
- A neighbor deliberately or accidentally controlling them
- Defective switches
- Some unknown noise signal that being interpreted as an ON signal
Of these, if I was forced to bet now, I'd go with defective switches. I'd love to of known what was causing your problem but you've put up with it enough.
As I don't think you really have any interest in ever automating your house with X10 lights at this point, I think it's time to take Dave's suggestion.
Head down to your local Home Depot and buy a pack of standard switches. If you don't already have one pick up a neon voltage tester, around $5 to test that power is off. Don't just go by the light turning off. If you have multiple switches in one box, they could be on different circuits and one could still be live.
I'd love to put one of those X10 switches on my test bench and test it in on an isolated circuit but I imagine at this point you're more inclined to want to have a hammer smashing party.
Let us know how it goes.
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The lights have never gone off by themselves -- god, that would be even worse, wouldn't it?!
I still think replacing everything X10 with standard switches would be the way to go.
I think you're right. I see a trip to Home Depot in our very near future. It's funny -- when it first started happening, it was kind of fun (in a slightly scary way) to think of past residents of the house messing with us, but as soon as it became clear that it was an automation issue, I just wanted it done with. So, friendly ghosts = OK, but lighting/wiring mysteries I can't solve = not OK. If nothing else, I've learned something about myself. :)
I'd love to put one of those X10 switches on my test bench and test it in on an isolated circuit but I imagine at this point you're more inclined to want to have a hammer smashing party.
Ha! Nah, no hard feelings toward the switches. You've been so helpful with all this -- if you're serious about wanting the switches, just say the word and I'll send them to you! I don't need to smash them, but I certainly don't want to keep them around either.
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...no hard feelings toward the switches. You've been so helpful with all this -- if you're serious about wanting the switches, just say the word and I'll send them to you! I don't need to smash them, but I certainly don't want to keep them around either.
Yes. Check your personal mail here for the address.
If they fail here then the mystery will be solved and I'll be happy. If they work on my test bench, then I'll mark them "S?"* and toss them in my box of spares and still be happy. Either way I'll post my results.
*Supernatural suspected :D
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Yes. Check your personal mail here for the address.
Got it -- consider them yours! It may take us a little while to replace the switches (though the sooner the better, in my opinion), but I'll definitely send them your way. May you have more success than I did. ;D
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Did replacing the switches solve your problem?
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Did replacing the switches solve your problem?
Sorry to take so long to reply -- haven't checked in for a while! When we began to replace the switches, we found that the wiring was more complicated than we anticipated, so we asked our neighbor (an electrician) to come by when he got a chance so he could help us out. The bad news is that we asked him two weeks ago, and he still hasn't come by. The good (and weird) news is that, during those two weeks, the lights have stopped coming on by themselves. There's no reasonable explanation for it, of course, but if and when they start up again, we'll replace them then.
steven r., I'm still planning to send them your way if we do end up having to replace them. Sorry for the back and forth on this!
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...The good (and weird) news is that, during those two weeks, the lights have stopped coming on by themselves. There's no reasonable explanation for it, of course, but if and when they start up again, we'll replace them then.
steven r., I'm still planning to send them your way if we do end up having to replace them...
If they've stopped coming on, then that's great. While I'd love to see them, don't rush to take them out if they aren't bothering you.