X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: EL34 on March 30, 2009, 02:21:51 PM
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I am not having much luck with the X10 pro XPCR coupler repeaters.
I had one go bad about a year ago.
Then the replacement went bad about 2 months ago
Then the replacement for that replacement went bad a couple days ago.
That's 3 of them so far.
When they go bad, they just send out a constant signal of A1 on then A1 off and flood the power lines.
I have mine installed across my 240vac dryer circuit breaker in a sub panel off of the main panel.
My x10 vender replaced a couple of them no charge, but I am getting tired of this routine.
Anyone else have problems with the XPCR's from X10?
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If I read your message correctly. The replacement did not do the A1 firestorm.
We have seen reports of CM15A interfaces getting into a fire fight with some repeaters. My Smarthome Dryer Outlet one did. My ACT CR134 so far has been OK with both X10 and Insteon signals.
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HI Brian,
In all 3 cases, the XPCR would be installed for a while and work just fine.
Then one day I would notice that some of my modules do not respond.
These are the modules that are on the other phase opposite of the CM15A
And so then I look at the X10 traffic monitor and see a constant stream off A1on/A1off.
I then go to the panel and turn off the 240v breaker that has the XPCR on it.
The X10 traffic flood stops.
Turning the breaker back on results in the flood of traffic again.
My x10 merchant has agreed to repalce the XPCR's, but I am more concerned as to why this keep happening?
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I would be also concerned.
Thanks for the added data.
If I see anything more I will post it.
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Thanks.
I have been putting the XPCR's on the same breaker as my clothes dryer.
Can you think of any reason why the clothes dryer could be causing problems when it is running?
I can't, just grasping at straws here.
While I am waiting for my replacement XPCR's, I added a .1/630vac coupling capacitor across the dryer breaker.
The modules on the other phase as the CM15A now seem to respond ok.
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Can you think of any reason why the clothes dryer could be causing problems when it is running?
I can't, just grasping at straws here.
Maybe,
I recall Jeff Volp commenting that the power supply caps or the coupling caps in the X10 repeater do not have much margin for over voltage ( I think Jeff was talking about the Neutral to the repeater going out will likely blow the internal fuse(s) which is not the problem you describe...and I digress). Anywho when your dryer kicks off, the motor might be creating an inductive spike that eventually scrambles the controller chip in the XPCR. I think this is a stretch, but maybe.....
I have an ACT repeater tied into my dryer line also and have no trouble, but I think ACT builds higher quality equipment. A cheap way to "fix" (if this is the problem) would be to install a 250V MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor - aka "surge suppressor") from each of the hot lines to the neutral. Probably would have room to mount them in the dryer cord connection box. 250V MOVs might be difficult to find locally. You may have to Google a mail order supplier like "Digikey" etc. Radio Shark, used to carry 600V MOVS...don't know if they still do.
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Being that my XPCR is actually on the breaker (about 15 feet away from the dryer), it would seems that if it was a motor spike, the spike would be on the whole 240v buss on the breaker box also?
Just throwing out thoughts
Seems that any 240volt motor device on the breaker panel or on the whole system of panels here including the main panel and two sub panels would have the same effect?
I could move the XPCR to my hot water heater breaker and see how that goes?
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I recall Jeff Volp commenting that the power supply caps or the coupling caps in the X10 repeater do not have much margin for over voltage ( I think Jeff was talking about the Neutral to the repeater going out will likely blow the internal fuse(s) which is not the problem you describe...and I digress).
Yes, that concerned an open neutral connection. Without a neutral reference, the voltage will not divide equally across both phases. Depending on instantaneous current balance, some devices expecting to see 120VAC might see almost double that.
I don't think an inductive spike would corrupt the microprocessor program. I think it is more likely that a bidirectional module somewhere is playing ping-pong with the repeater - perhaps a CM15A macro? While it could be a bad lot of repeaters, I'd expect to see similar reports from others if that were the case.
An interesting test would be to leave the repeater powered (while sending the ON/OFF storm), and disconnect other transmitters (including your CM15A) to see if the problem goes away.
Jeff
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An interesting test would be to leave the repeater powered (while sending the ON/OFF storm), and disconnect other transmitters (including your CM15A) to see if the problem goes away
good idea.
Ahh, you just jossled my memory banks.
I have one main panel here and two 100 amp sub panels off that main panel.
seems to me, that the farthest sub panel (about 175 ft from main panel) also has a XPCR on it.
I thought I had passive couplers on the main panel and then sub panel above, but maybe not, (been a long time, can't remember)
I'll have to go out and take the cover off that other panel when I get time and see what is inside it.
If there was another XPCR on that far away sub panel, would this cause the problem?
If so, how come it does not do it right from the git go?
Also, having two XPCR's, is the one that is doing the system fllooding actually being damaged by the other XPCR?
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Just throwing out thoughts
Seems that any 240volt motor device on the breaker panel or on the whole system of panels here including the main panel and two sub panels would have the same effect?
Yes, but the farther you are from the source of the spike, the more it is attenuted. When I first read your description I thought you had the XPCR wired right across your dryer connection (at the dryer). But as I mentioned I thought it was a stretch that it really could be something from the dryer. I see Jeff thinks the same thing.
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Maybe I did not explain properly.
I am talking about having another possible XPCR on that far away 100 amp sub panel.
The XPCR's that have been blowing up are on a 100 amp sub panel inside my house, about 15ft away from the dryer.
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Two questions that we need to ask ourselves.
1) Are the XPCR's really blowing out, or just suffering from a "firestorm"?
2) Does the XPCR have AGC?
Automatic Gain Control could explain why it takes time for a firestorm to develop.
Of course, these questions only apply to the existence of two XPCR's
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1) Are the XPCR's really blowing out, or just suffering from a "firestorm"?
Yeah, I wondered that yself, but I already sent two of the dead ones back.
2) Does the XPCR have AGC?
Don't know that.
I was also curious why the firestorms would take nearly a year to develope in once instance, 6 months in another and two months in the last instance.
And also why they could not be reset by throwing a breaker, waiting a while, then turning the breaker back on.
The thinking was that the two XPCR's got into some sort of sync pattern and that could be broken and reset somehow.
I'll have to remove the cover on that other sub panel tomorrow and see if there is another XPCR in that sub panel
I know for sure that I have a passive coupler in the Main breaker panel.
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If you determine your defective XPCR is actually caused from two XPCRs playing ping pong with each other, I know the ACT 234 repeater can be set to detect and ignore X10 signals from other repeaters. I am bettering Jeff Volp's XTB IIR can also. But one "smart" repeater would break the cycle.
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If you determine your defective XPCR is actually caused from two XPCRs playing ping pong with each other, I know the ACT 234 repeater can be set to detect and ignore X10 signals from other repeaters. I am bettering Jeff Volp's XTB IIR can also. But one "smart" repeater would break the cycle.
I started out with the Smartlinc coupler/repeater plugged into the dryer outlet. It did an okay job on one leg of the circuit, but not the other. So I dove in and installed an XPCR at the service panel. Like the OP, the first one died (within days) and the replacement wasn't exactly dead, but it never did much of anything.
Then I got the XTB-IIR and this, in conjunction with the Smartlinc left plugged into the dryer outlet, does a very effective job of reaching 98% of the house with about 97% effectiveness.
I'm very pleased with XTB-IIR and highly recommend it!
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I have series of questions regarding my x10 products.
I have question about the XTB IIR. To install a XTB IIR, will i need a coupler/repeater like the XPCR to make it work? I have about 16 circuit breakers all aligned into 2 columns, 8 in each column. Where and can i suppose to mount the XTB IIR?
I was going to hire an electrician to install the XPCR in the circuit breaker box. I build my own home from the ground up, so would you think i have the capabilities to install this myself? I learned how to install wall switch and doing alittle electric work here and there, nothing major. Does anyone have a picture of how they install it and mount it? Because, an electrician told me nothing can be hanging from within the circuit breaker box, only beside it.
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The XTB-IIR is in itself a coupler/repeater, and a XPCR should not be installed along with it. The XTB-IIR wires to a 240V circuit. If your electrical panel is full, you can probably replace some full-width breakers with half-width "skinnies" to free up room for a 240V circuit. You may also be able to use a quad breaker in place of two normal size breakers. Those will feed two 120V circuits and one 240V circuit.
If you can install outlets, just install a 240V receptacle adjacent to your distribution panel, and wire a matching plug to the XTB-IIR. If you are not comfortable working around the distribution panel, you should certainly consider hiring an electrician. By code, nothing can be installed inside the distribution panel, not even the XPCR.
Jeff
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Thank you for the reply, Jeff. I kind of understand you, just alittle. I'm from California, USA. I still need a 240V? Can anyone provide some pictures of how they install it and mount it to their circuit breaker box? That could really help since i am seriously thinking about ordering the XTB IIR, but i am alittle hesitant because of my limited knowledge on these stuff.
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I kind of understand you, just alittle. I'm from California, USA. I still need a 240V?
Virtually all of North America is on a split phase 120/240V system. Either side of neutral is 120V, and across the two "hot" legs measures 240V. Most circuits are on either one phase or the other. An electric stove, dryer, or hot-water heater will straddle both legs so it can receive 240V.
To better understand how this works, please see this troubleshooting tutorial:
http://jvde.us/x10/x10_couplers.htm
Of course, things may be different in California. I understand they are considering outlawing black cars because they need too much energy to air condition. Did they outlaw 240V to save energy?
Sorry, but I don't have any photos that show that level of detail.
Jeff
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Thank you for the reply, Jeff, again. What kind of 240v Amps would i need? Would that be a 3 wire 240v? What gauge wire would i use? What kind of receptacles would the XTB IIR require?
After installing a 240v breakers, would it look something like this?
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Instructions on how to connect the XTB-IIR are included with the unit when shipped, and they can also be found on the XTB website.
Because of the questions you are asking, I really think it is best if you hire an electrician. 240V is not something to fool around with when you are not certain of what you are doing. Even after working around electrical systems all my life, I am very careful when working in a live panel.
Jeff